jessica3
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:3
 |
| 09/14/2009 11:45 PM |
|
We are thinking of installing a Geothermal heating system for our new house we are planning on building. However the price seems to be exorbitant.
Our house will be in Wisconsin and is a total of 6600 sq ft with 4500 1st and 2nd flr, 600 sq ft bonus room over garage and 1500 sq ft finished area in basement.
I have recieved 2 quotes both $56,000
1) 2 variable speed Water furnace Envision NDV water to air Geothermal heat pump including domestic hot water generator, 15 kw reasistance back up heater, 11 MERV and waterfurnace programmable thermostats and vertical outdoor loop field.
2) 2 6 tons Carrier GT-PX Puron system with horizontal slinky closed loop field and hot water generator.
Last year when I had gotten an verbal estimate for the geothermal system, they cost atleast $15,000 less. It seems that all the contractors in our area have used the tax credits for themselves and increased the price of the system by 30% in 2009.
Any thoughts or recomendations.
Regular Gas HVAC would cost us $18,000. Is the additional $40,000 or $24,000 (after tax credit when we do get it) worth the cost? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
jonr
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:335
|
| 09/15/2009 8:36 AM |
|
You need to plug in utility rates, interest rate, how long you intend to keep the house, tax rates. But with natural gas, it is quite possible that it isn't worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
geome
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:59
|
| 09/15/2009 9:21 AM |
|
My perspective, from a homeowners standpoint, is that I agree on doing calculations as best you can (given that utility rates will most likely increase over time). Remember to factor in that, in general, geothermal units last longer than conventional systems. The last figure I heard was almost a 25 year life expectancy of the unit. Also remember that when the units need to be replaced in 25 years the outside loop should not need to be replaced if it is sized and installed properly. People are talking about 200 year life expectancy of HDPE closed ground loops. This means that the replacement cost of the units in 25 years should be significantly less than the current install price.
I wonder if the first contractor would price the loop horizontally? Horizontal loops are generally less expensive to install if soil conditions are good for digging. Need to make sure soil conditions are good for heat transfer too.
I would continue getting bids if experienced contractors are available. Our Envision units were installed earlier this year and prices varied by as much as $9,000 to $16,000 for IDENTICAL systems, in VA, that are half the size you are talking about. Contractors came from as far as 1 hour away to quote the job. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get a better price with a good contractor, unless none are available. When they come out, tell them that you are on a tight budget and need them to sharpen their pencil if they want the job.
Good luck and keep asking questions.
P.S. I am getting some different figures than you did. $56,000 x 0.7 (assuming you can take the 30% tax break on the entire amount) = $39,200 - $18,000 = $21,200 incremental cost. Did you back out a portion of the $56,000 that may not be tax deductible?
|
|
|
|
|
Ona
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:130
|
| 09/15/2009 10:02 AM |
|
It's interesting that the first contractor did not consider a horizontal field... especially since the second contractor is saying that it is possible. I would check on that.
Do any of the estimates (geothermal or your tradiditional gas w/HVAC) include duct work?
Do you know how many tons the Waterfurnace estimate includes?
I have a 2000 sq ft home and have a 3 ton Waterfurnace envision. But keep in mind that my home is 80 years old with limited wall and basement insulation. I live in Upstate New York which has a similar climate (i.e. heating degree days) to your neck of the woods.
I wonder whether a good heating load calculation was done by either contractor (also called manual J calc). A 6 ton system seems reasonable in your case, but I'd double check.
As far as price goes, I paid $38,000 for my 3 ton system with a well and all duct work (in an old home so more complicated). This was before the 30% so there was no up in price due to the rebate. When I called, the phone estimates I got were much lower than the 3 I got after contractors came to my home. It may be that the lower phone estimate may just be a product of not seeing the site. |
|
Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
|
|
drao
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:50
|
| 09/15/2009 1:48 PM |
|
I would like to know first of all that the 30% taxbreak is subject to a maximum of $2000. Hence the tax man will only return $2000 back to you. I applied for this last year and this is all you will get back.
Also, you may want to look at my forum -Faulty Earthlinked DX systems . I have a DX system, supposedly more efficient than a water based system(there is no intermediate exchanger) that we retroinstalled in Aug 2008. I had a wonderful installer (still is trying to fix my problem) and lookat all the problems I have had. You will see that your house is comparable to mine. I would definitely want you to research the company- they all promise that they are the best and customers have had no problems whatsoever.
I put in a lot of money into these systems and forget about payback( I am still paying out of pocket). So BUYER BEWARE! I don't see a pay back with your system (comparing natural gas) in less than 20 years! assuming you don't take out a mortgage on this amount Please don't believe all they will tell you. Manufacturers make a lot of assumptions based on test conditions which is rarely true( kind of like gas mileage!).
Hope this info helps.
|
|
|
|
|
Ona
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:130
|
| 09/15/2009 2:26 PM |
|
To be accurate, the $2,000 cap was in place in 2008, and from January 1, 2009 through 2016 there is no cap, you will get the full 30% of the geothermal system.
(see this link for details: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index)
Geothermal, even when installed correctly, can have a long payback. There may be other items to consider, for example, we didn't want a fuel tank (either oil or gas) on our property anymore - we don't have access to natural gas through a utility. Furthermore, my husband and I did not want to be at the mercy of swinging fuel prices (electricity does not swing as much). This does not even consider any environmental benefits. So, in the long run, my husband and I decided to make a large investment with a long payback. We have been fortunate that our installation was good and that we saw significant savings in the winter from our previous 6 winters. |
|
Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
|
|
geome
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:59
|
| 09/15/2009 3:28 PM |
|
I agree with Ona.
Need to do calculations to determine the estimated savings per year. Since you need to install a system anyway, only take the incremental cost (compared to a conventional system) of the system after the tax credit and divide it by your annual savings to figure out the number of years until payback. For us, it is only about 9 years (we received a fantastic price on our system). If you plan to be in the house a long time, to me anything less than 20 years deserves serious consideration given the anticipated life expectancy of the units. Remember, the payback will be even sooner when the system needs to be replaced since the ground loop should be able to be re-used.
Ona, like your web site. Is that old refrigerator near your geothermal unit plugged in? 
|
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1418
|
| 09/15/2009 10:03 PM |
|
12 tons seems high if you are not near the canadian border. lots more info required to answer that question. FYI verticals in my area (mid MI) are about $2,700 each so the real cost after that of your system is not that different than conventional quote.
18,000 for 6000sf is low and I would guess code minimum (crap).
Instead of asking whether geo will pay you back you might want to ask what a code minimum system will cost you.
If you have lot size, horizontal loops will likly save you 15 k. Open loop even more.
good luck,
joe |
|
Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
|
|
Ona
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:130
|
| 09/16/2009 10:02 AM |
|
geome ~ Too funny... no that old refrigerator is not plugged in. If it was, I'm sure my electric bill would double! It was in the basement when we bought the house and for some reason my husband is attached to it and does not want to give it away for scrap... he thinks it's "cool."
Joe ~ I assumed that the 2 before the 6 in option two was a typo and that Jessica3 meant a 6 ton system... Jessica3 - if you could clarify. |
|
Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
|
|
jessica3
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:3
|
| 09/16/2009 12:08 PM |
|
Thank you for your replies.
It is actually two 6 ton systems for a total of 12 ton.
I have left messages for the contractors to call back when I will try to get more answers.
Option #2 is provided by the builder's contractor. The builder has never installed a geothermal system in any of the homes he has built in the past. He has always used this contractor for all his homes for gas HVAC. He says this contractor has so far installed geothermal system in 12 homes.
Option #1 is provided by a contractor that was recommended to us by another builder we were thinking of building in another location 10 miles away. However we changed our mind about that area as we weren't sure about the school district.
Actually we had worked with 2 builders in this previous location just to evaluate different plans and prices. The 2nd builder had quoted us a price of $16,500 additional for a geothermal system in a house of smillar sq footage and size of lot, although there wasn't a bonus room in the earlier plans. This was in Nov. 2008. I don't know who their contractor was and I can't find out as we are not building with them.
Our home is in Milwaukee area. Our lot is 1.6 acres and supposedly clay soil. We will have mound septic and on-site well. We can only have closed loop system.
This year when I am speaking to the same contractors on the phone, their phone estimate is $15,000 more than Nov 2008. When I question them about the difference they tell me it wasn't them who must have given me the estimate last year but some other company which is not of same quality as them. However I know who I spoke to and even kept notes. So I am not mistaken. It definitely seems they have jacked up their prices since the 30% credit.
I would think that the cost of putting geothermal should be consistent throughout a similar climactic region in a similar sized and insulated house. The only cost that should be variable is the cost of the external loop sytems which would depend on lot area, soil conditons etc.
This home building is a stressful process. Another decision we have to make is whether to have copper or PEX plumbing. Cost is not the issue here but rather which is a superior and safer system. I am reading conflicting reports on the internet. Very, very confused lately.
|
|
|
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:662
|
| 09/16/2009 1:30 PM |
|
Jessica3,
Copper has been around a long time and we know its pros and cons. What negative things have you heard about pex? Have you looked at pex-A systems with memory as opposed to pex-B and pex-C? |
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
|
|
vhehn
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:117
|
| 09/16/2009 1:51 PM |
|
| with the cost of natural gas today a 56k geothermal system will have a very long roe period. if ever. |
|
|
|
|
Ona
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:130
|
| 09/16/2009 2:23 PM |
|
| I am shocked at a 12 ton system for a new 6,600 sq ft home. As I mentioned earlier, my home is ~2,000 sq ft, it's old and leaky and I have a 3 ton system. It is my humble opinion that someone did not do a manual J calc to determine what the heating load actually is. Getting a correctly sized system will most likely lower your cost. |
|
Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
|
|
jonr
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:335
|
| 09/16/2009 4:18 PM |
|
> We can only have closed loop system.
Just curious, what/who indicated this? Water quality might be a legitimate issue, but standing column and returns wells can solve the disposal issue.
|
|
|
|
|
JackH
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:27
|
| 09/16/2009 4:43 PM |
|
jonr...
Wisconsin and the DNR (Dept of Natural Resources)frown against open loops....but dump over-flow sewage in Lake Michigan, that's okay
In Wisconsin,
there are regulatory constraints on open loop systems. The main
constraint is that the groundwater cannot be reinjected into the earth,
but instead must be dumped out onto the surface and allowed to seep
back in slowly (to avoid contamination of groundwater supplies). These
systems are therefore only possible in some sites. |
|
www.indoorcomfortsystemshvac.com |
|
|
jessica3
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:3
|
| 09/16/2009 6:05 PM |
|
Alton,
Obtained the following from a plumbing forum
(sorry deviating from the topic of geothermal but this is another dilemma)
PEX:
Pro's:
1. Can be economical. Currently the linear foot cost is about 1/3 that of copper however, when run in the modern manifold configuration we use so many more linear feet that often the final cost is more than copper.
2.Expected service life in excess of 75 years.
3.Easy to install, can be fished through walls like electrical cable.
4.Easily bends around corners.
5.PEX tubing will withstand freezing.
CON's
1.Not yet code accepted in all places.
2.Requires expensive fittings.
3.Requires the fittings be set with expensive crimping tools.
4.While the tubing will withstand freezing the fittings are made of copper and are subject to the same freezing problems as copper.
5.While it is argued that PEX is the material of choice in areas with acidic water it must be remembered that all PEX fittings are made of the same grade of copper as copper pipe and they are also subject to pinholes.
6.Exposure to UV light(sunlight) deteriates PEX tubing and it must be shielded from direct exposure.
7.For reasons known only to the varmints involved, rabbits, mice, rats and opposums have a high propensity to chew on PEX tubing.
8.Biofilm has the highest rate of growth in PEX tubing when installed in a manifold configuration. (Biofilm is known to cause a number of diseases among which is legionaires disease.)
Also, there are talks about how the hot chlorinated water in PEX tubing possibly causes leaching of toxic substances into the water (like the controversy of plastics being harmful when heated). Don't think it is true but does make you pause and wonder.
I noticed that you are a residential designer and construction technology consultant. How do I find one in Milwaukee?
|
|
|
|
|
jonr
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:335
|
| 09/16/2009 7:41 PM |
|
Sounds like the author doesn't like PEX. I much prefer PEX and think that many of those cons are inconsequential or just plain wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Masoud
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:116
|
| 09/16/2009 10:11 PM |
|
| "I would think the cost of putting geothermal should be consistent throughout a similar climatic region in a similar sized and insulated house."
Jessica 3,
Your thinking is correct in a free market economy with perfect competition.
In geo markets, equipment supplies are often tightly controlled by heat pump manufacturers and finding competent installers is not simple. The actual price (customer's cost) of an installed system is more likely set in a way to maximize profits or to optimize other objectives, rather than merely by actual supplier/installer costs.
Tax credits are going to benefit, likely unequally, both sellers and buyers of geo systems. The dynamics of these benefits will also change between now to 2016.
Regards,
Masoud |
|
|
|
|
geome
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:59
|
| 09/17/2009 6:13 AM |
|
| Additionally, contractors (hopefully qualified) that are slow may provide better pricing when they are slow compared to when they are busy. Even contractors that sell the same brand have different overhead costs and prices will vary, possibly quite a bit. Whether they are slow or not could be a result of many variables including time of year, the economy, etc. Fortunately, we were able to get a good price earlier this year since our contractor was slow this past winter. Saved us about $6,000 before the tax break compared to the next closest quotes we received. Would your GC allow you to hire your own geothermal installer? I still believe you could possibly save a lot by price shopping. There are possible disadvantages of going with your own sub that Joe at AMI can tell you about. But there are possible advantages too (price, more experience, etc.) |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1418
|
| 09/17/2009 7:05 AM |
|
Many builders' favorite heating guys are the ones who bid lowest. Code minimum duct and geo do not go hand in hand.
Re. pex. Many, MANY systems have already failed. Fittings and bandings have come apart plumbers who don't know any better let it rest on framing members where rub holes develop. Most systems have undergone constant revision in the last 5-10 years due to frequent failures. I don't know a brand that predicts a 75 year lifespan that can support it with historic succes rate.
Copper is much less expensive than a few years ago and IMHO the way to go.
Besides price, the popularity of pex is rooted in the same place as CSST (corrugated stainless steel tube) gas pipe and greater use of flex duct..... code minimum/ cheap labor (don't have to train a guy to solder or thread pipe or cut sheet metal). The materials are often more expensive, the real savings is unskilled labor.
j |
|
Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
|
|