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Ona
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Posts:130
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| 09/24/2009 8:12 AM |
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I am just a homeowner who has a geo system. I have been told by my WaterFurnace installer that if I needed to replace ONLY my unit today, it would be in the $8,000 range (3 ton). Take that info for what it's worth... just a homeowner saying what she heard from her installer :o) (kind of like playing the game of telephone)
Personally, I would have no problem paying that when my unit needs to be replaced (hopefully in 20 years or so). My sister-in-law and two brother-in-laws both had to replace their air source heat pumps within 7 years. They were different brands, but all reliable name brands. So, it could be a climate thing... perhaps in my area ASHPs don't work as well?
I have one friend and one co-worker who each have geothermal systems, one has been in place for 22 years and one for 14 years. Neither have had issues with their systems in all those years and neither feels that they will need to replace the systems soon. More importantly, they are spending a fraction of the cost to heat and cool their homes than traditional systems.
To sum it up, I know that this does not give you details of cost. But I did want to share that I am comfortable having paid what I did for my geo system. It is a personal choice. If you are not comfortable and do not feel you will get the payback, don't do it. There are situations where it is not the best choice. |
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Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
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joe.ami
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Posts:1418
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| 09/24/2009 10:19 AM |
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Trying to find out what the difference would be between a reg HP and geo system(water loop, slinkies) WITHOUT the trench or wells involve. Can anybody answer that? Ex. A 4 ton reg HP vs 4 ton geo system. Duct work for a new simple 2500sf 2 story house with 4 bedrooms and two full baths? Has crawl space. Duct work for a reg HP vs. geo system?
--------Again average system we sell is 15-20K throw in the duct work (and again ductwork is the same for ASHP's and GSHP's) and you are probably about 20-25. Now for any old heating system (code minimum) some hack will do the job for 10K. Would you like an ASHP then probably 12K. If you want ASHP equipment that qualifies for utility company rebates then you are over 15-18K (don't worry about tax credits they are not for fossil systems on new construction). So high end ASHP with duct as much as 18K geo as much as 25K. My price on loops $6,400. Price GOUGE (you say) $600. Of course I can only speak about mid MI others operating costs are different. ----------------
engineer.......I agree with what you're saying. Just trying to get actual facts here. Everybody keeps talking about the tax rebates.....these are ONLY temp. It seems everyone is using that as an excuse for exorbint pricicing.
----------here's outrageous pricing for you, in the scenario above the geo (after 30% tax credit) would be cheaper than comparable (16-18 seer) ASHP (and cost less to operate). WHY ARE ASHP's SO DARNED EXPENSIVE?--------------
These figures above seem waaay outta wack. I say this because 2 1/5 yrs ago I had to have my HP replaced. By the way everyone says HP don't last as long as a geo system, my HP was 27 yrs old when it was replaced. It took 3 guys 5hrs to replace the inside air handler and install 2 ton 13 Seer Traine unit(var. speed) outside for a total cost of $4200.00.
-------Really? You want to compare a 2 ton 13 seer unit to a 4 ton HP with or without ducts? Really? Now mind you that 13 SEER unit doesn't qualify for tax credits, but my GSHP has to 'cause that's what people want to buy, but let's toss that out and say loops are in place and electric is in place and you want a low end geo. I sold a tax credit qualifying 2 ton geo this year for about $6,000 (mind you there were other charges for a buffer tank and hot water generator but your ASHP can't make hot water). So yeah that's more expensive, but if you compare it to an ASHP with like efficiency ~18 SEER and 3.5 COP I think you would find pricing similar.-----------------
The difference between a new construction bid with quality duct work and high end conventional equipment vs a geo system without loops or tax credits is nominal. With tax credits the geo could easily be cheaper.
Robin I don't know what numbers you are working with but must of the units I put in are 15 to 20K. If we use your numbers of raw cost for the loops at 4K and concede that the loop contractor is entitiled to make a few grand (for sundries such as gas, equipment depreciation and liability insurance) and take a high end airsource system at 8 to 9 grand....voila; you've got 15K.
Throw in some tax credits and geo is cheaper in this scenario.
-------------I thought I'd throw in a few of my answers as you keep insisting no one is answering your questions----------------
Robin you want to disregard tax credits but we can't....that's what people want to buy, so those are the prices you are seeing. Your new 13 seer unit is the least efficient system allowed by law and would not qualify for a tax credit though a 16 or 18 seer unit would, but that would have cost you thousands more. That would be the fair comparison.
So I ask you again to disregard your notion that we are not forthright and consider the flaws of your question.......
"Why does a super high efficiency system twice the size of mine (you refer to 4 ton geo) cost so much more than my smallest available (2 ton ASHP), lowest efficiency appliance allowed by law.....and don't tell me about tax credits (just because your customers want to qualify for them) or higher skill level of the tradesman or thousands of dollars of excavation.......I want to know why it costs so much!:)
I'm trying to sum up your argument in the way it comes across to me, I'm really not trying to poke fun at you. I really sincerely want you to understand. Why not start by calling and asking your guy for a price on a 16-18 seer 4 ton system and I think you will begin to see that you have a poor measuring stick ($4,200, 2 ton). We you find the price of that system compare it to Ona's $8,000 replacement quote and ask your guy why ASHP's cost so much.
Ona; well said.
Joe
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 09/24/2009 6:13 PM |
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Our system installation is complete and the unit fully operational around 1pm today. It certainly can put out a lot of heat and a lot of cool air. Now the real test begins --- fall/winter.
I posted earlier today that my contractor told me his well-drillers charged about $1800 per well. I specifically asked him today about the breakdown between the well-drilling and the unit/ductwork installation. He says the cost per well is close to $1500 instead of the $1800 I thought he had told me a month ago. So 5 x $1500 =$7500 leaves a bit more profit for the contractor --- he and his guys earned it. I'm impressed so far ... and I 'feel' much more at ease with the amount of money we just spent on the system. |
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joe.ami
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Posts:1418
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| 09/24/2009 9:57 PM |
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Price per well is decieving and dependant on who does what. for $1500/well I would get a hole in the ground. For $2,800/well I get loops grout flush and flow center. Your guy might be right with both numbers.....he might pay $1,500 for the well and $300 more for the grout.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Joe |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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robinnc
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Posts:195
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| 10/14/2009 6:27 PM |
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Ok, some folks gave info on why geo is so expensive that
makes a lot of sense. Thank you! Very few mfg. and the high SEER rating. I know
the higher SEER the units go up exponentially in cost . One mentioned that geo
is around 18-19 SEER. I’ve been doing some searches and can’t find anywhere
that geo is actually rated in SEER?? One dumb question, what makes a unit a
higher SEER? I know the higher SEER is more efficient and costs less to operate
but what is the dif. Say between a
14 SEER and an 18 SEER inside the
unit??
I’d still like to find out the difference in prices between
the two heat pumps. Ex. If both are 18 SEER for geo and reg HP and 4 tons each, what would be
the difference in price for the units? Is there any difference in prices for
the duct work? ? What does the desuperheater for hot water average in price to
add to the geo unit? Are the air handlers dif. between the two?….Are the costs
the same or higher? Can one of the pros
give a side by side comparison of the costs? I’m not talking about trenches or
wells….I know that can vary greatly.
I’ve been trying to find out what slinkies cost by doing a
search and can’t find it anywhere. Can one of the pros tell me how much
slinkies cost?
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engineer
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Posts:1157
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| 10/14/2009 7:13 PM |
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SEER is a watered down version of EER, which is a cross-pollinated (different unit systems) version of COP. If you aren't confused yet, you should be!
COP is a straight multiplier of heat provided / energy consumed, so is the most pure and understandable yardstick of system performance. Unfortunately it is not used for cooling on our side of the pond.
To get cooling COP, divide EER by 3.413. That's fairly easy, but EER is only used to rate portable (window) air conditioners. EER is rated at 95 degrees outside air temp
Unfortunately central AC units and heat pumps aren't rated using EER. Instead, SEER is used. SEER is EER at more favorable (for cooling) outdoor temps, 86, I believe.
Outdoor air temps aren't relevant to performance of water source units, so geo units are EER and COP rated at differing conditions of source water flow and temperature.
Bottom line is that air-source SEER ratings aren't directly comparable to geo unit EER or COP.
I have read, but can't rigorously support, that SEER is about 1/3 higher than EER, for the same cost of operation so for comparison purposes make that adjustment. In other words, an EER of 30 might translate to a SEER of 40.
Several mainstream geo units are AHRI rated at EER 30 (requires fairly favorable water conditions) which would translate to a SEER of 40, which no air-source unit can touch. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
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Posts:1418
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| 10/14/2009 10:08 PM |
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Robin,
your question is becoming a moving target.
I've answered it repeatedly yet you go back to your pre disposed notion that geo is unfairly priced.
Duct work code requirement is the same for both, but more hacks will sell air source and put in substandard ducts.
I mentioned that your equipment is relatively speaking (compared to geo) low end. It is not a criticism of the equipment, just a fact.... you are comparing apples to oranges.
j |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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robinnc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:195
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| 10/19/2009 5:23 PM |
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Thanks for all that info engineer…..it’s probably very good
info if I only understood what ya saying……:(
I totally understand
the trenches and wells can add a HUGE amount to the cost. I know the
system I installed in my home with a 13 SEER is at the lower end! NOT trying to
compare this with geo by any means. I’ve been reading on this forum for several
years and everything I’ve read seems to show geo is anywhere from 3x-4x more
than an air HP. Please forget the
blasted rebates as these are ONLY temp.
I would ‘never’ use the min. duct work in a house. Joe, you
imply that all subs that install air HP will only quote the bare min. duct work
but the geo subs will only quote the ‘best’ duct work. So if the ‘best’ is used for both units(air HP
and geo) would have the same costs?
As for the air handlers, are they priced the same for an air
HP and geo?
I have no idea what a 4 ton air HP 18 SEER unit would run
today. This is what I’m trying to compare to the cost. From what I’ve read here
it seems that geo would have a SEER 18 if they were labeled that way….that is
correct right?? If this correct, can anyone tell me the dif. in cost for a 4
ton air HP to a 4 ton geo unit?? Just the unit, not installed. Someone posted
that if they had to replace their 3 ton geo it would cost around 8 grand for
just the unit. Again, can someone fill me on what a 4 ton air HP unit (with the
highest SEER rating they come in now) sell for now? Somebody else said they
were quoted 15 grand just for a 4 ton unit. These prices seem astronomical to
me. Maybe this is where the limited mfg. comes from. Also can anyone tell me what slinkies cost? Also, what does it cost to add the
desuperheater for hot water? I plan on installing a geo system in the future for
my last house. Trying to get a break down for each stage.
For the experts out there. Can one of you say that a geo
unit ton for ton compared to a air HP (unit only)is approximately 3x more or 4x
more or whatever it might be??
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geome
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New Member
Posts:59
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| 10/19/2009 7:09 PM |
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Robin, our pricing was $25,000 for our 2 ton and 3 ton WF Envision units with a closed horizontal loop in SW VA. More typical pricing was $30,000 from other installers. We received many quotes, and one quote was for $39,000 that we immediately discounted. We could have installed 2 Trane 13 SEER air source heat pumps for $10,000. So in our particular situation, the cost (without tax rebates) was 2.5 to 3 times the cost of two 13 SEER units.
The geothermal price included (I don't have a breakdown) the loop, trench, and some duct modification, a Marathon water heater, two desuperheaters, 2 top of the line thermostats, 10 year warranty on everything, and probably more that I can't immediately recall. What I'm getting in return are geothermal units that have a life expectancy (as I understand it) of roughly double that of an air source heat pump. Also, according to engineer, if it were possible to convert EER to SEER, our 30 EER units would actually be closer to 40 SEER, not the 18 SEER that you mentioned. Verbal quotes we received for two 18 SEER air source units were approximately $19,000. Also keep in mind that we can reuse our loop when the units need to be replaced.
Prices can vary widely for numerous reasons (many of them previously mentioned). Just because we received quotes for 2.5 to 3 times 13 SEER units, doesn't mean that your quotes will be the same. There is no set pricing between geothermal installers any more than there are set prices from different installers that would sell you 13 SEER heat pumps. We paid more for geothermal than we would have paid for air source heat pumps, but we are getting a lot more in return for it. A used 70's Pinto won't be as efficient or last as long as a new Prius. We didn't expect geothermal heat pumps to be any different since they are more efficient and last longer than new 13 or 18 SEER air source heat pumps. I don't remember if it was mentioned earlier, but I imagine that research and development costs are very high in the geothermal industry. Don't get me started on pharmaceutical companies, but R&D costs need to be recovered for companies to survive and for new products to be developed.
From a price standpoint, all a person can do is to get numerous quotes and decide between them (all other things being equal, but they rarely are in reality). |
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robinnc
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Basic Member
Posts:195
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| 10/19/2009 10:55 PM |
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Thanks geome! Very good info!! I don't compare 'anything' with the 13 SEER I replaced at my house a couple of years ago. I know that is at the bottom of the rung so to speak. That's the first time I've heard geo can have a 'rated' around SEER of 40!!!!! If that's the case.....NO air HP can come even close to a geo system!!
I don't live in the house I plan on spending the rest of my life right now so hopefully they will come down in the next few years with more mfg gearing up. I REALLY believe in geo....just not some of the quotes I hear on here given to folks. It seems to 'me' that some of the subs are trying to keep the prices sky high as much as they can because it's 'new' and 'green'......needs much MORE competition!!!!
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geodean
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Posts:1085
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| 10/19/2009 11:51 PM |
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Posted By robinnc on 10/14/2009 6:27 PM
I’ve been trying to find out what slinkies cost by doing a
search and can’t find it anywhere. Can one of the pros tell me how much
slinkies cost?
Between $10 and $25 per foot.
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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geome
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:59
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| 10/20/2009 7:41 AM |
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| Dwayne, would you please clarify "per foot" of what? Thanks! |
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geodean
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Veteran Member
Posts:1085
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| 10/20/2009 8:02 AM |
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| gome, I was thinking per foot of trench. |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1157
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| 10/20/2009 7:48 PM |
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| Don't get too hung up on the high SEER and EER numbers I posted - read carefully the disclaimers I added. Much is climate, loop field and ductwork-dependent and the high SEER / EER numbers only. I have a well-ducted 3 ton Envision with 71 degree open loop artesian water in FL and it runs at about EER 20, as near as I can calculate. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1418
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| 10/21/2009 7:51 AM |
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Robin Geome has the answer you are looking for....19K for high end (yet still inferior) ASHP and 25K for geo....
so again "why is it so much more if you take out the price of the loops?"....5 tons of horizontal loops go for about $8,000 around here right now, so again, take out the price of the loops and it is not more for geo.
The question you should be asking is "why does air source cost more?"
j |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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heimdm
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:39
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| 10/21/2009 7:54 PM |
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| Central Indiana here... we got the ASHP hauled out. All new duct work installed, loop installed, ClimateMaster 27ton - 5ton unit installed all for around 22k. Once we get our rebates that will be around 15k. The geo system is extremely comfy. |
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dkubarek
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Posts:52
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| 10/21/2009 9:40 PM |
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| I keep hearing chatter about people claiming ductwork on the tax rebate in the U.S. Does anyone have anything on that? I know this is new because the cap last year made it impossible you would have enough to start claiming ductwork. I planned to try and claim ductwork, desuperheater, air purifier and humidifier (on a new construction). I'm getting a Climatemaster 27 and I think some of those items are housed inside the unit and are covered. Not sure about what is after that (I know the desuperheater is). I called IRS's "Complex Tax Law" division and they couldn't provide a sure answer but said the law sounded like everything from the wells TO and INCLUDING the unit was covered but they weren't sure after that. |
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heimdm
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Posts:39
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| 10/21/2009 9:44 PM |
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It is probably all about how it is written up. The more you break it out the more opportunities of it getting rejected. If the bill just just says Material $x and installation of 3 ton Geothermal system with despheraheater...
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new2geo
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New Member
Posts:17
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| 10/21/2009 10:12 PM |
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I just was given a quote for a six ton WF envision, desuperheater, buffer tank, humidifier, merve air filter and 1200 vertical loops for $52,000. Yet I see others with all different quotes. It seems to depend on where people live, and what local installers charge.
The OP has a quote for TWO six ton units like mine, with many of the same things included, yet her entire system will cost $56,000. I also have a quote for two units, 3 and a 4 ton, and it was for $70,000. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1418
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| 10/22/2009 7:53 AM |
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Posted By new2geo on 10/21/2009 10:12 PM
I just was given a quote for a six ton WF envision, desuperheater, buffer tank, humidifier, merve air filter and 1200 vertical loops for $52,000. Yet I see others with all different quotes. It seems to depend on where people live, and what local installers charge.
The OP has a quote for TWO six ton units like mine, with many of the same things included, yet her entire system will cost $56,000. I also have a quote for two units, 3 and a 4 ton, and it was for $70,000.
Sure it depends on where you live. Cost of doing business and geology to be drilled vary wildly.
Some of the quotes include duct work, some don't, some are horizontal vs vertical, some include in floor radiant.... you have to be sure to compare apples to apples.
RE tax credits.... it has it's own thread....but once again it is for geo systems, not air cleaners. Ductwork in new construction is not a geo exclusive expense but on a boiler retrofit... Your installer can certainly give a free air cleaner to the buyer of every new geo.
j |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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