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shaedog
New Member
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| 03/25/2009 10:00 AM |
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here is another good GEO story. i have a 036 climatemaster running on a lake loop. when it is running and all circulators are on (3) i am drawing 6.5 amps at 220 volt. do the math on that....1320 watts......this system is heating my 1200 sq foot house, providing Domestic hot water pre heat..and it only ran about 70% of teh time to do this in the winter......
1320 watts times 24 hours = 32 kwh / day or...53kwh times 6 cents per kwh = $1.90 / day
the other 30 % will be plumbed to my garage and likely a hot tub....
how can heat be any cheaper???????? |
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ED C
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 04/01/2009 6:05 PM |
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a serious complaint with our gshp is the air noise. after internet research we seem to need twice as many
register outlets. that should slow the velocity down to quiet levels (light sleepers).
regards;
ed c |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1418
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| 04/03/2009 7:23 AM |
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Ed C,
Start a thread with your equipment info and complaints. GSHP's are generally quieter, but not necessarily with aux. on. I would be willing to bet that your installer underducted the system.
J |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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Rick Faszold
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:1
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| 04/15/2009 9:29 PM |
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Shelley:
Great post! I did my own Geo system and put it on the 'Net mistakes and all. www.ricksgeo.com.
It's REALLY nice reading about someone else's experiences...
Shortly after I got my Geo going (Oct '08), our house was appraised (or devalued) in February '09, the appraiser did NOT raise the value of the house one penny.
The thinking was that there were not enough Geo's in the area to do accurate comps....
I did my 4 ton system for a little under $10K. I'm running a GeoComfort system.
Again, thanks for the post.
-Rick |
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buckeyegreen
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/24/2009 4:45 PM |
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Rick:
Great writeup on your website! I think I am going to install my own system, using horizontal ground loops. |
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ecobuilder
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Posts:86
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| 04/29/2009 10:54 PM |
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I installed a horizontal ground loop on the house I just finished and the cost savings were significant over other options. Open loop system was not really an option due to poor water quality. The cost to install, 3 200' vertical bore holes would have been $13,800 here in MA, $23 per foot. The horizontal system cost around $6,000 to install and $1,200 of that cost was the backfill material needed. Here is a video showing the system being installed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=way5AvYpnR4
Pretty simple if you have some experience and an excavator. I chose to go deeper than the required 6' and was on average 7-1/2 to 8' below grade. Just so everyone knows this ground loop is less efficient than other methods, if your house is not well insulated and draft free I would not suggest this option as a first method to reduce energy costs. The only way this system made sense or os it cents, is the house being very energy efficient to start. When sizing the system, have a good heat loss calculation done for the house, do not assume that all contractors do this correctly, most just use rules of thumb for sizing. The more efficient the house or building is the low the cost to install geothermal. For my application a 3 ton water to water system was used to delivery radiant heat to the concrete slab of a very efficient 1,976 sq/ft house. If the house were an average home, built the same way most houses are built, the system would have needed to be at least a ton or 2 larger and the cost of the exchange would have been that much greater also. IMHO geothermal is a great option only after you have taken all other steps to reduce the energy loss in a building and for me it is one that enables home to be solar ready. No fossil fuels, use the sun!!! |
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"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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jonr
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:335
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| 05/10/2009 9:00 AM |
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I suspect that GSHP manufactures are using higher air flow rates to increase efficiency. This adds to the noise problem, especially with an older duct design.
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dancour
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:27
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| 05/12/2009 7:34 PM |
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| Thank you MoviePen for you detailed description.
I'm interested in your water pump set up and if cycling is a problem.
Dan |
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MoviePen
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| 05/12/2009 8:11 PM |
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Posted By dancour on 05/12/2009 7:34 PM
Thank you MoviePen for you detailed description.
I'm interested in your water pump set up and if cycling is a problem.
Dan
Keeping in mind my "layman" status... assuming you mean hot water, my HP isn't connected to my hot water. Our setup had two instant hot water heaters in place, so we elected not to re-plumb and change over to a different system.
If you don't mean the hot water, which pump are you looking for info on?
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dancour
Registered Users
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Posts:27
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| 05/13/2009 4:48 AM |
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Now I'd like to pose that question to Birdmongo ... (maybe I should be starting a new topic and not messing up Shelley's excellent ongoing report about their loop system in NY)
....... I'm interested in knowing how your well water pumping system is set up. Could you describe what pressure you have going to your heat pump etc.. |
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geodean
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1085
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| 05/13/2009 6:31 AM |
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Posted By dancour on 05/13/2009 4:48 AM
Now I'd like to pose that question to Birdmongo ... (maybe I should be starting a new topic and not messing up Shelley's excellent ongoing report about their loop system in NY)
....... I'm interested in knowing how your well water pumping system is set up. Could you describe what pressure you have going to your heat pump etc..
Yes, please start your own thread.
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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shearers
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:7
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| 05/16/2009 12:11 PM |
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I live near Peterborough, Ontario and had a ClimateMaster (TTV049) installed in Oct 2008. The cost was about $20,000 for the unit and around $5000 for the excavation - horizontal loops.
Previously heated with forced air oil furnace. The amount of oil purchased in the last 3 years was 2005 - 2087.4 litres, 2006 -1114.1 and 2007 - 2309.5 litres.
I don't have a separate meter on the Geo unit, so I can only measure the increase in KWHr used this year compared to previous years.
06Oct-07Mar 3321
07Oct-Mar08 3316
08Oct-09Mar 7734
The increase this year is 4416 which costs about $287.04 at the current electricity rates in Ontario. There are additional costs as well because the delivery charge also is based on the amount used, however, there is a savings over the oil heat.
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 06/09/2009 10:59 PM |
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Thanks for the great post. I too have been searching for actual user feedback regarding installed systems. I have received quotes for installation of a geothermal system from 2 companies. After the initial sticker shock and much research on the web, I'm not terribly uncomfortable with the quotes [it seems most geothermal systems are consistently overpriced] , provided I can recoup the very high initial costs in a reasonable time. I need a new furnace system. My old oil burner boiler drives a hot-water radiator system. It has heated our home nicely over the years, but the expense of heating oil has made it nearly unfeasible to continue with. Add occasional soot problems and it has become a headache. The boiler finally cracked this winter after 26 years of service, so I must get something this summer. A replacement geothermal system of 5 tons was recommended by both vendors [DX and Waterfurnace], with 5 vertical wells 165 ft deep for the exchange tubing [we're in rocky mountinous terrain, so long horizontal trenches are impractical]. The DX quote was just under 29K, and the Waterfurnace just under 26K. Both with de-superheater and 20KW integrated auxiiliary heating coils. Having no existing ductwork, switching to a forced-air system forces on the cost of adding ductwork now [including in the price quotes].
I realize I'm paying upfront for the efficiency of the system, trading cash now for cash I'd have to use to buy oil [as well as a new boiler] if I stayed with my oil burner. Estimates for heating oil this coming winter indicate an expectation of $2.40 to $2.60 per gallon for oil threough a co-op, probably $2.80 - $3.00 outside a coop. Conservatively I can expect to spend $3500 - $4000 for heating oil IF I stick with an oil burner this year. PLUS I would have to buy a new boiler and get my chimney repaired. I have a nice Woodstock soapstone woodburner which has been at times my primary heat source and always my backup. I went through 4 cords of wood this year and typically 1250 or more gallons of heating oil.
It seems like I should jump at the geothermal system, yet that large upfront cost still is forboding. It is good to see actual electricity usage numbers posted. I live in SW PA, and although our "advertised" electricity rate is currently $0.05547 per KWH, once you add in all the transmission, distribution, transition, taxation, etc charges, it averages out around $0.09 per KWH. With caps on rates expiring next year, we are promised a substantial increase in the rate by our utility company. I don't want to find mnyself with large monthly electric bills that don't justify the upfront expenditure for geothermal.
Please continue to post your electric costs if you can, esp. you MoviePen, as you understand my plight. Your last post with cost data was late January. I'd love to see your analysis for the winter now that summer is here, mild as this summer is so far. |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 06/09/2009 11:32 PM |
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| I see the subject thread "Year in Review" has a collection of electricity usage data for the past winter from various posters. |
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dkiernan
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:34
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| 06/10/2009 5:44 AM |
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Hi KJ
I hate to get away from the purpose of this thread, but I have a couple of questions for you. I have been looking at geo since last summer also. I have gotten a couple of quotes for my home, also 5 ton system, new duct work also since I have baseboard hot water now. Both were around 50K. My elec. rates in RI are about $.17/kwh now and were $.22 last summer. Did your quote include ductwork? From a New England perspective your quotes if they include the duct work seem pretty reasonable. I would be looking at $35K even after the fed. tax credit. I have decided to wait and see if hopefully the cost of the sytems drop, tax credits(state) get better and the price of oil stays relatively low. |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 06/10/2009 10:38 AM |
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dkiernan ... the quotes do include 'partial' ductwork. I say partial, because our exisitng house is only 1400 sq. ft. That 1400 sq ft of ductwork is in the current quote. We will be adding a 1600 sq ft addition next year, so that ductwork is presently "virtual" and will have to be installed/paid for as the addition is built. I had not intended to get a new HVAC system until we built the addition, but the failure of my boiler this winter has forced me to act.
I have 2 concerns this morning: 1) contrasting the pros and cons of a Waterfurnace water/antifreeze system vs the DX copper tubing/freon refrigerant system. I'm searching through thread titles and content for such info, but being new to this site that could take a bit of time. If anyone is aware of a discussion thread where this has been addressed, please point me to it.
2) Living much of my life in Florida, we have had air exchange heat pumps for several decades [I now live in SW PA]. I just had a new one installed at my mom's home near Orlando. I got the same warning as always --- when the temp gets into the 20's we'll need an auxiliary heater to back the heat pump. I understand that with an air exchange system. I wasn't expecting the same warning with a ground exchange system ... at least not for 20 degree weather. I thought the whole purpose of going in-ground was to get not just a little more heat exchange efficiency, but much more exchange efficiency. Yet numerous postings seem to relate that these in-ground systems need similar auxiliary backup, and can run all day/night long on the coldest days. If these 'coldest days; are 10 below zero, then maybe I can understand that, but I don't expect poor performance in 20 degree weather. Where I live, we get a week or more of lows below zero. Postings I've read relate that the water temp coming out of the ground loop can be 40 deg F or even in the 30's during cold weather. This doesn't sound like very good heat exchange with the ground, given ground temps of 55 deg F where I live. Is there a 'design flaw' with these in-ground systems limitng the heat exchange with the earth ??? Are the in-ground loops being undersized ?? |
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Bergy
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:116
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| 06/10/2009 6:28 PM |
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KJ,
It's not a design flaw in the system, it's a compromise between the heating and cooling requirements of the home and economics for the home owner. Homes in the northern third of the country "generally" require twice the Btu's to heat compared to those needed for cooling. When steps are not taken to balance the two needs, the resulting excess cooling capability will not properly dehumidify the home. A two stage unit is the first step to a proper design.
The second step is the proper sizing of the unit. We try to size for 92%~97% of the heat required for your home. Why? Let's say a 3 ton Geo unit will provide 95% of your needs, that means a 4 ton unit would provide more than 100% of your needs. Why is that bad? Cooling... a 3 ton unit in first stage cooling will provide about 10,000 Btu's LESS than a 4 ton unit. So aux. backup strip heaters are used to make up the difference AND provide emergency heat in case of compressor failure.
The economic benefit to you adds up fast. About $1,500 less for the 3 ton unit. Anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000 less for the loopfield. Not only do you get to save several thousand dollars but you get a home that is COMFORTABLE!!
Bergy
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MoviePen
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:15
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| 06/11/2009 9:39 PM |
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Posted By kj on 06/09/2009 10:59 PM
Please continue to post your electric costs if you can, esp. you MoviePen, as you understand my plight. Your last post with cost data was late January. I'd love to see your analysis for the winter now that summer is here, mild as this summer is so far.
I updated my post for the total winter cost, duplicated here so you don't have to page back for it:
Updated June 11, 2009
- We had 182 heating days this winter (10/15 - 4/17), and I calculate the heating
cost at an average of $4.66 per day. We spent about $850 for heating for the winter,
at $0.09/kwh (power cost and delivery fees).
- We used 6 face cord of
wood (at $55/fc) to supplement on the very cold days, and for winter ambiance. (I
count the wood as a wash -- we would have used about the same amount
for the same reasons had we stuck with oil - I really like the wood
stove ambiance. :-)
- Next year's costs I hope will be even lower -- our loop field
settled significantly this spring, so we should now have very good
compaction. Plus we'll have our drafty doors sealed properly.
I'm still looking at a very good payback, but may have to adjust that if I have to modify the duct work (that's probably this summer's adjustment to the system).
Shelley
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 06/12/2009 10:30 AM |
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| MoviePen ... thanks for the info !! KJ |
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ecobuilder
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:86
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| 06/15/2009 10:53 PM |
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dkiernan,
I would get the specifics on the system. I have found that some Geo installers tend to overcharge, most likely because they are one of only a few around. Depending on how complicated the duct work needed in your house is, this seems a little high. What type of exchange method are you using? This will have an impact on your efficientcy and cost of install. Was it an open well system? or a closed loop? Horizontal or vertical? I have found that if you have the land available a slinky loop horizontal system is less costly to install, with some reduction in efficiency, not much. Vertical bore holes in MA cost around $23/ft and a 5 ton system would need around 1,000 ft or 5-200' holes. An open well system might work if you have good water and plenty of it. Recently building officials have been getting picky about having a second well to drop the water back into rather than using the same well. And if you don't have good quility water the system will reduce efficiency and fail over time. When I was preparing to install a system recently the plumbing inspector in my town said, " Geothermal systems don't work in this area". I asked him why? Are they open well? He didn't have the right answer, even after he just informed my that my water for the house needed a $4,000 filtration system because of iron and manganees issues in the well water. DUH. Closed loop was our only choice. Then comparing vetical bores, the cost came in at around $14,000 for 3-200' holes. I chose the vetical slinky loop and the installed costs were around $6,000. The total installed costs without duct work for a 3 ton system cost about $17,000, not $50,000 but then again 2 tons smaller. If you are seriously considering doing this feel free to contact me, I am in MA and would love to help you get this done without breaking the bank. Good luck. slinky loop picture attached
Tom Pittsley
ecobuilder@aol.com
www.eebt.org |
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"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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