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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 12/22/2008 12:00 AM |
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This kinda stuff drives me nuts , first because I want to grab my multimeter and start ohming things out , second because a thermal over load is the easiest thing in the world to diagnose first it will be hot as hell second you have open windings , if the compressor is drawing any amps it is not a thermal condition , no tech should need flashing led lights to tell him whats wrong with a compressor .
On the topic of the 26k btuh system , keep in mind I am by no means a water source guy but how many tons is the system ?
It sounds from the btu output like a 2.5 ton . What I would do is make attempts to have the issue resolved by the installation company , but if they are unwilling or unable to resolve the issue ask for a manufacturer rep contact . That comment about the gas system hit home with me and will with anyone that cares about the future of this industry . When the contractor told you 26k was he saying that like it was a good thing , was an accurate heat load calc done? |
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Cincy Mark
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:21
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| 12/22/2008 3:43 AM |
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| Well, it is 3:30 AM and I woke up because it was cold as could be. The thermostat is set to 69F, and the inside temp is 58F. The exit temp at the vent is 62F. I have never had the output vent temp that low before. It is like the air is on. I just cranked up the gas burning fireplace, and am about to get some wood to crank up the wood burning stove. The unit is a packaged unit, and the contractor who installed it said he did not find a leak. I will be calling in the morning an requesting someone from the supplier fo the unit to come out ASAP. Very frustrated, and feeling like a fool for being proactive and replacing the 16 year old GEO Florida Heat Pump system that was here before. |
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engineer
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1135
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| 12/22/2008 6:23 AM |
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CM
Sorry to hear your unit is running so poorly. Given the very low vent temp you may have a refrigerant leak. Perhaps the compressor has stopped entirely - very low refrigerant charge can shut it down on either high internal temp or low pressure cut out. Dewayne is right - increasing water flow to 15 GPM will do no good.
Geofan - CM earlier posted his unit as an 064 - 5 tons. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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Ona
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:128
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| 12/22/2008 8:48 AM |
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Cincy Mark ~ I am just a homeowner with a Waterfurnace, so I have no vested interest in you keeping your ClimateMaster, except that I think that geo heating and cooling is an incredible technology on many levels. There is energy conservation, air pollution, sustainablility, dependence on oil, financial savings, etc.
In addition, geothermal does work, there is no doubt about that. You either have a bad unit or bad installation. I would ask that you hold ClimateMaster responsible for giving you what you requested: A fully functional and comfortable heating system. This should not be your problem anymore, since your installer is not giving you satisfaction, go direct to ClimateMaster. Or, if you want to give your installer another chance, do not let them leave until it is working properly and then have them come back for a few mornings (before they go to their other jobs) and check to ensure that it is still working.
When we were working out my initial kinks in my system, my installer reponded within an hour of my calling and was either there that day or, if it was in the evening, he sent his employees the next day. I would not let them leave until the house was comfortable. |
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Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
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Gary De
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:12
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| 12/25/2008 1:20 PM |
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Hey Cincy
yea man that sucks. I too have a tranquility 27, got home on the Dec 23rd from work to a 52 deg F house. the outlet temp is 58 deg F.I checked the code it's locking the compressor out. it seems to me that it is low on refrigerant. it has a code 4, and the coolant temp is within range and i cant check the pressure. I'd call my installer but I just want to, well I cant say what I'd like to do to my installer its not legal. anyway I'm an auto tech but I'm getting an education on Geo thermal I'll tell you. had the unit 1yr 5 mos. This is a replacement unit for a hydro Delta unit that the condenser (heat exchange) leaked refrigerant and the compressor seized after 1 year. Kinda wish i would of bought a gas unit and put all new windows in the house. I called a different company they're coming out. |
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Cincy Mark
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:21
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| 12/26/2008 10:59 AM |
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| My installer and tech from the supplier are coming out on Tuesday to look at the unit. I have lost all confidence in my installer, and can only hope the tech will be able to find what is going on. I will let everyone know the outcome next week. Thanks for the comments. |
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Cincy Mark
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:21
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| 01/03/2009 7:32 PM |
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| Code 4, compressor shutting down. Tech claims bad sensor since temperatures look fine. Sensor has now been replaced. GPM was high, so they slowed it down to check system specs. Everything looked fine. Freon level was a tad low, so they added some. We shall see how things run. |
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P haskell
New Member
Posts:0
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| 01/03/2009 9:03 PM |
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| Is that 1st stage or 2nd stage for the temp of 90 f |
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bbexperience
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 01/10/2009 3:28 PM |
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Hello all,
I found this thread while Google searching the differential settings for a ClimateMaster ATP32U01 and a Tranquility 27 and I'm hoping someone can help! I'm in Michigan and we've had some issues with out geothermal system since installation ~2 years ago. Specifically, it doesn't seem to be able to keep up with a Michigan winter...even the relatively mild days. We've also had a plethora of water (discharge from the system) issues, but that's another story. Anyway, I'm beginning to think the primary reason for the temp problems is settings in the thermostat. The installer set the system to have a 1st stage differential of 2 and a 2nd stage differential of 4. The anticipator was set at 4 by default and we have the setpoint temp at 72 with temperature offset of -4 as we have another digital thermometer set a few feet away that reads as a consistent 4 degrees lower. Today when we woke up the temperature in the house according to the thermostat was 66 (other thermometer read 65.4) and 1st stage was running, as it does 24/7 in winter. Obviously, 1st stage wasn't getting the house warm enough, so I started fiddling with settings. I adjusted the anticipator down to 2 and second stage finally kicked in.
Finally, my question: I'm wondering if the anticipator is what actually forced second stage to kick in. Are the differential settings in this thermostat cumulative? Meaning that if I set 1st stage to 2 and 2nd stage to 4 the temp actually has to drop 6 degrees before 2nd stage kicks in? This makes sense to me, sort of, and would be consistent with the temperature drops we see in the house as well as the fact that the thermostat allows you to set the 2nd stage differential lower than the 1st stage differential. I've found and read the manual and it doesn't even mention how the 2nd stage differential works, it simply mentions that it has one. Hopefully someone can give me definitive answer! Thanks!
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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 01/10/2009 4:11 PM |
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need all the info for the t-stat , stage differential is based on the set temp not other differentials
you likely have the owners manual , not the installation manual which will have much more info |
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bbexperience
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 01/10/2009 4:42 PM |
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Posted By geo fan on 01/10/2009 4:11 PM
need all the info for the t-stat , stage differential is based on the set temp not other differentials
you likely have the owners manual , not the installation manual which will have much more info
I do have the user's manual. As far as I can tell from the Climatemaster site, there isn't an installation manual for the thermostats. At least not any that I can find.
I don't know if you meant you need MY settings, or the info in general, but my settings look like this:
Temperature set at 72
Anticipator: 2
1st stage differential: 2
2nd stage differential: 4
Temperature offset: -4
Cycles per hour: 4
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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 01/10/2009 5:40 PM |
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the t-stat is reading 4 degrees high because your offset is -4 move it to 0
did you do that or the installer? or are you one of those people that set there alarm clocks 20 min fast ( to sleep in )
I need the #s off the t-stat one of these
ATP32U03
ATP32U04
ATA32U01
ATP32U01
ATP32U02
ATA--U01
AST008
Outdoor Air Temperature Sensor |
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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 01/10/2009 5:43 PM |
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This should answer most of your questions
TEMPERATURE OFFSETS
This option allows calibration (or deliberate miscalibration) of the room
temperature sensor(s). There are various reasons why the displayed
temperature would be adjusted to a higher or lower value. NOTE: Do
not adjust for 30 minutes after installation because board may be heated
by handling. The selected number is the number of degrees, plus or
minus, which will be added to actual temperature. The numbers can
range between -5 ° and +5°. Default values are set to 0° offset.
Temperature Offset
Remote Indoor Offset (if sensor is attached)
Outdoor Offset (if sensor is attached)
HUMIDITY OFFSET (Humidification/Dehumidification models only)
This option allows calibration of the humidity sensor. Adjustments can
range between -10% and +10%. Default is 0% offset.
ANTICIPATOR
This adjustment controls the sensitivity of the thermostat. Higher
numbers decrease the sensitivity. Lower numbers increase the
sensitivity. Default value is 3, and the range is 1-9.
DIFFERENTIAL (Differential configuration only)
This adjustment will vary the number of degrees, from the set point,
before a call for heating or cooling is made. Adjustments can range
between 1 ° and 4° differential. Default is 1° offset. (If your set point is
70 °F in heating, your thermostat will not call for heat until the
temperature is 69 °F, with a 1° differential).
CYCLES PER HOUR
This feature will not allow more than the specified number of equipment
cycles per hour. Values can be 4 or 6 (or 1 cycle every 15 minutes
(default) or 1 cycle every 10 minutes, if 6 is set). Factory default setting
is 4. This default selection will provide optimum performance in nearly
all installations.
MENU → SETTINGS → CYCLES PER HOUR |
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bbexperience
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 01/10/2009 5:54 PM |
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Posted By geo fan on 01/10/2009 5:40 PM
the t-stat is reading 4 degrees high because your offset is -4 move it to 0
did you do that or the installer? or are you one of those people that set there alarm clocks 20 min fast ( to sleep in )
I need the #s off the t-stat one of these
ATP32U03
ATP32U04
ATA32U01
ATP32U01
ATP32U02
ATA--U01
AST008
Outdoor Air Temperature Sensor
I am by no means an expert, but I think I need to leave it at -4. If I move it to 0 and the actual temperature in the house is 66 (according to the other thermometer) then the thermostat reads as 70. Therefore, at a set point of 70 and a 2 degree 1st stage offset the furnace doesn't kick on until the actual temperature is 64! Am I missing something here?
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bbexperience
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 01/10/2009 5:58 PM |
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DIFFERENTIAL (Differential configuration only)
This adjustment will vary the number of degrees, from the set point,
before a call for heating or cooling is made. Adjustments can range
between 1° and 4° differential. Default is 1° offset. (If your set point is
70°F in heating, your thermostat will not call for heat until the
temperature is 69°F, with a 1° differential).
The above is exactly what's in my user manual. My problem, as I stated in my first post, is that it doesn't say if the 1st and 2nd stage differentials are cumulative or separate. If I have my set point as 70, is the second stage supposed to kick in at 66 or 64 (2 1st stage + 4 2nd stage)?
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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 01/10/2009 6:06 PM |
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The installer set the system to have a 1st stage differential of 2 and a 2nd stage differential of 4. The anticipator was set at 4 by default and we have the setpoint temp at 72 with temperature offset of -4 as we have another digital thermometer set a few feet away that reads as a consistent 4 degrees lower.
A little confused , was this a typing error
I would set stage 1 , 1 degree diff
stage 2 is a comfort control decision
the lower the number under high demand the system will maintain much closer
the higher the number the better for eff . you will use less second stage but have much larger temp swings
If you leave your thermostat alone and dont adjust it a 2-3 degree diff for second stage should be fine
If you adjust you t-stat frequently ( especially in mild whether ) you will be less efficient ie. triggering 2nd stage when you dont need it |
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geo fan
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:395
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| 01/10/2009 6:08 PM |
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My most sincere apologizes I was wrong
The Differential option will use temperature differential only to determine
the appropriate heating or cooling stages for operation. This algorithm will
keep all activated heating or cooling stages energized until the demand is
fully satisfied, rather than “de-staging” them as the demand is being
satisfied, like the Proportional Integral algorithm does. This option will
activate first stage heating or cooling when the temperature is more than
the first stage differential value, below or above the setpoint. Second stage
eating or cooling will be activated when the temperature is more than the
first and second stage differential values combined, below or above the
setpoint. Third stage heating will be activated when the temperature is
more than the first, second, and third stage differential values combined,
below the setpoint.
For example: With a heating setpoint of 70 °, first stage differential value of
1 °, second stage differential value of 1°, and third stage differential value
of 2 °, first stage heating will be activated when the temperature drops to
69 °, second stage heating will be activated when the temperature drops to
68 °, and third stage heating will be activated when the temperature drops to
66 °. |
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Masoud
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:116
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| 01/10/2009 6:39 PM |
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bbexperience,
The differential settings are cumulative. I know this from experimenting with my tstat Climatemaster ATP32U02 (same as yours, but with humidity sensor), and reading a newer tstat's manual that was marketed last November. The way your settings are, the temp must drop 6 degrees below setpoint, for 2nd stage to engage. It is hard on the system to bring the temp up so much in our Michigan winters. When the weather was not so cold ( in 30') my 1st stage differential was set at 2, my setpoint at 70. When the room temp got to 68 the heat pump started, and turned off at 70. Now that outside is 23 degrees during the day and much colder at night, I have set my 1st and 2nd satges' differentials at 1. The heat pump has not really been into the 2nd stage yet. It has run all night and kept the temp at 70. Our tstats do not go to 2nd stage based on the run time, but only for the differential.
A larger 1st stage differential results in the system working more efficiently, as it expands the on and off cycles. I found this useful when it was not very cold, and run times were very short on a small (1 degree) differential. My 3rd stage differential is set at 1 also. If the temperature falls below 67 degrees my wife will leave.
I am not sure about the role of anticipator, except what I read in the manual. My understanding is it effects the sensitivity of the tstat within 1 degree.
For an offset of -4 degrees, is your tstat on an outside wall or exposed to cold air somehow? Cold air may seep inside the wall where the stat is. If it is simply 4 degrees off, you have found a quick fix by adjusting the offset.
Regards, Masoud
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bbexperience
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 01/10/2009 6:55 PM |
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Posted By Masoud on 01/10/2009 6:39 PM
bbexperience,
The differential settings are cumulative. I know this from experimenting with my tstat Climatemaster ATP32U02 (same as yours, but with humidity sensor), and reading a newer tstat's manual that was marketed last November. The way your settings are, the temp must drop 6 degrees below setpoint, for 2nd stage to engage. It is hard on the system to bring the temp up so much in our Michigan winters. When the weather was not so cold ( in 30') my 1st stage differential was set at 2, my setpoint at 70. When the room temp got to 68 the heat pump started, and turned off at 70. Now that outside is 23 degrees during the day and much colder at night, I have set my 1st and 2nd satges' differentials at 1. The heat pump has not really been into the 2nd stage yet. It has run all night and kept the temp at 70. Our tstats do not go to 2nd stage based on the run time, but only for the differential.
A larger 1st stage differential results in the system working more efficiently, as it expands the on and off cycles. I found this useful when it was not very cold, and run times were very short on a small (1 degree) differential. My 3rd stage differential is set at 1 also. If the temperature falls below 67 degrees my wife will leave.
I am not sure about the role of anticipator, except what I read in the manual. My understanding is it effects the sensitivity of the tstat within 1 degree.
For an offset of -4 degrees, is your tstat on an outside wall or exposed to cold air somehow? Cold air may seep inside the wall where the stat is. If it is simply 4 degrees off, you have found a quick fix by adjusting the offset.
Regards, Masoud
THANK YOU! Between this and the post above I finally have a definitive answer and will adjust the stat immediately.
As far as the offset goes, the stat is on an inside wall and there are no vents or anything on the wall where it is. The only thing I can think of is that there's probably a cold air return duct inside the wall directly behind it, but I wouldn't think that would effect the stat. Regardless, the solution for now of adjusting the offset seems to be working.
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Gary De
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:12
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| 01/13/2009 8:49 PM |
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| hey guys here is an update on my heater issues. my ground loop had air in it, and the referigerant level was low. after resolving these issues, the unit has never worked so well. they have returned and checked, no loss of pressure in the ground loop (yahoo!!) and after tightoning the schrader valve on the low side there appears to be no more referigerant loss. I will be keeping an eye on that as well. I'm starting to think this geothermal stuff might work out afterall. man I sure hope so, It's been a tough road so far ! |
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