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Forums > Green Building Forums > General Forum - Residential > Subject: Spray Foam - attic area of ICF residence

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ICF Going GreenUser is Offline
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06/16/2008 2:27 PM  

My location is South Central Pennsylvania (17241) 

 

 I will soon be insulating the attic area of my one story with full basement 3300 square foot ICF residence and was looking for some guidance or advice.  I have been researching which spray foam product (open or closed cell) would best serve my needs and of course going vented or unvented for the attic area.   I checked out building science.com but they only seem to discuss encapsulating the entire attic creating a ventless/semi-conditioned attic space.  Upon submitting my plans for analysis to Energy Wise Structures- McKinney, TX  I outlined that I planned to place one inch of closed cell spray foam on the attic floor to complete the envelope and then add R-50 blown cellulose over top to increase the R-value, while letting the attic breathe from soffitt to ridge vent. Energy Wise Structures provided no negative feedback on this approach so I assumed this to be acceptable for my application and geographic location.   

 

 I plan to use a closed cell product and apply it directly to the attic floor on the back side of the drywall and between the bottom truss cord.  

  My reasoning for this is as follows:  I have very steep pitched roofs that would be difficult to access.  My total square foot area under the shingles equals 6400 square feet.  The “floor area” of the attic equals 4550 square feet.  This is almost a 2000 square foot difference (Less square footage = less product and time which = less money.)   There is no HVAC, Plumbing or other equipment in the attic area.  It is for this reason that I have chosen not to encapsulate the entire attic area (under the shingle area) and only spray the attic floor area.  The soffitt and ridge vents are in place and so the attic area will “breathe”.   I have radiant barrier on the backside of the plywood sheathing covering the roof.    I have a Heat Recovery Ventilator planned for installation. 

  

 My question(s) are:

 

1.      If using only closed cell (CC) spray foam in the attic floor area how many inches of product is required to provide me with a complete seal (no air infiltration) and at the same time guard against conduction, convection, radiation, moisture permeation and provide an acceptable R-value?      

 

2.        Is it good practice to combine the (CC) spray foam along with blown cellulose or should I stick solely with CC spray foam?   With the attic being vented and exposed to moisture, dust and other factors, I am concerned with the long term effect that these elements will have on the blown-in-cellulose. 

 

  Thank you for time and assistance,

 

Newville, PA  17241

PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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06/16/2008 4:24 PM  
Posted By ICF Going Green on 06/16/2008 2:27 PM
1.      If using only closed cell (CC) spray foam in the attic floor area how many inches of product is required to provide me with a complete seal (no air infiltration) and at the same time guard against conduction, convection, radiation, moisture permeation and provide an acceptable R-value?
If only using foam, you would want as many inches as is necessary for the R-Value that you desire.
 
2.        Is it good practice to combine the (CC) spray foam along with blown cellulose or should I stick solely with CC spray foam?   With the attic being vented and exposed to moisture, dust and other factors, I am concerned with the long term effect that these elements will have on the blown-in-cellulose. 
Sure, I recommend it all the time. You want to seal everything from below. If you are using recessed fixtures, make sure that they are completely sealed and IC(insulation contact). Also make sure they every hole(think electricians & plumbers) from all of the lower walls are sealed. Really, you just need an inch or 2 to do the sealing, then the cellulose for the extra R-Value. Long Term, your only worry is to keep the space dry.

Good Luck!

....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
AltonUser is Offline
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06/16/2008 5:15 PM  

ICF Going Green,

Cellulose thick enough to equal R-50 will cover the ceiling joists or bottom chords of the roof trusses.  Thick insulation makes it very difficult to move around in the attic.  You should consider installing a 24" wide catwalk about 12" above the cellulose.  It should run from one end of the home to the other so that you can easily make inspections for leaks, etc.  Ideally, the catwalk should be located where the attic is the tallest so there will be plenty of headroom.

Alton


Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular
FlaICFUser is Online
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06/18/2008 9:38 AM  
When we built an ICF home last year in FL, we opted for nonvented attic using 6" of Icynene (open cell ) at the roofline. Equates to R25 at the roof, I believe.This buried all the truss top cords on a 4/12 hip roof. Leaves plenty of room for access. Beefed up the trusses at location to allow for ply decked storage areas. No insulation on ceiling. Attic temp. stays around 90-95 deg. House at 78-80 deg.
YarbroughUser is Offline
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06/24/2008 3:22 PM  
My grandmother used that method of installation in her father's attic and she said that it caused it to condensate real bad. Just thought that should be taken into consideration.
CFL-ICFUser is Offline
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06/26/2008 8:29 AM  


This home is Eco-Block with Icynene. About 3600+ with a guest suite out back. There avg eletric bill was $100.
I say was because now they watch there meter go backwards during the day. :) They added a PV system.



"The most energy efficient home in Florida. This home, located in Orlando, received the USGBC LEED Silver rating earning 72 points, 4 points shy of the Gold rating.
The home was constructed with Eco Block ICF Walls, Peachtree Insulated Low E Laminated Windows and Doors, Polyurethane Spray Foam insulation, large overhangs, and metal roof. The combination provided the energy efficient envelope. Coupled with a dual compressor heat pump, energy star lighting and solar water heater, provided the owners with a remarkably energy efficient structure.
Environmentally friendly Low VOC products, Low Flow Fixtures, Bamboo, Stained Concrete and Cork Flooring completed the Green interior package."






With this complete package. They not only have no electric bill. They save 55% on there insurance. :)
CFL-ICFUser is Offline
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06/26/2008 9:10 AM  
The theory of sealed attics is not about just cooler attic temps. It's also to stop the vapor/moisture.

So please dont try to reinvent the wheel and go "cheap" with 1 inch on the attic floor.

No ridge or overhang venting. 4-6 inches on the underside of the roof deck all the way to the overhangs. Enough to cover the spaces between trusses and the trusses themselves. The savings in your heating and cooling will far outwiegh the costs of doing it with this proven method.
gregjUser is Offline
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07/02/2008 1:05 PM  
Posted By Yarbrough on 06/24/2008 3:22 PM
My grandmother used that method of installation in her father's attic and she said that it caused it to condensate real bad. Just thought that should be taken into consideration.


Which method did she use?
YarbroughUser is Offline
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07/03/2008 5:10 PM  
I'm not sure, I'll have to ask. She told me about it because I was going to use it to try to stop my camper from condensating. She said they used that in his attic and it caused a lot of mold to form. I would say you just need to leave some places for ventalation and it would be okay.
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Forums > Green Building Forums > General Forum - Residential > Spray Foam - attic area of ICF residence



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