newbiejohn
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| 02/27/2009 11:20 AM |
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Guys before I start, I just want to ask that you dont FLAME ME. This is my first post, i just wandered on to this site today searching on yahoo. Im going to build a home in New England this coming spring where it gets very cold and long winters.
Here is what im thinking about doing
Double Wall 2x4 with 14" space for blown in dense pack cellulose using advanced framing techniques. Want about R50 in the Walls and looking to add R75 to ceiling.
The one thing that concerns me is thermal breaks around top and bottom of the interior wall. Any thoughts?
FPSF - cant seem to find alot of information online about this, have read some and have contacted a few contractors but unsure how much insulation under the slab and the sides to ensure limited weather coming into any contact with the foundation.
Triple pane windows, currently looking at Hwindows and Inline in Canada - Unsure of the costs to this point.
Siding im planning on using is HardyBoard/Plank etc.
How does a do it yourselfer figure out what and how big of a heating system I would need and if its best to heat the slab or use another heating system?
What do you guys recommend for removing moisture and bringing in fresh air into this new home? What brand, benefits etc
Thanks in advance for the advice, but keep in mind im not interested in SIPS or ICFS so please help me keep this topic on target.
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greentree
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| 02/27/2009 12:10 PM |
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Your interior thermal breaks at the envelope are taken care of with your 14" wall gap and your r-75 ceiling which will overload 5/8 rock at 24" centers.
FPSF: I dont know what that means.
Triple pane will probably e more than your hoping.
Heating load: manual J; you could use rescheck if you use a "sip" as your wall material then input your figured r-value as a dense pack double wall is the same concept thermally. |
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newbiejohn
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| 02/27/2009 12:17 PM |
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FPSF, Frost Protected Shallow Foundation
Triple Panes are that much eh ? How much per window on average do you think for an average bedroom type window ? |
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The Sipper
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| 02/27/2009 1:07 PM |
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So I was hoping to be the first respondent to the original post that started this thread but Greentree beat me to it, and I sure can't argue with his response, he even mentioned sips after newbiejohn said that he wasn't interested in SIPs or ICFs. His observations in connection with 24" OC trusses/R-75 insulation, the cost of triple pane windows, and the fact that a SIP wall will meet the same thermal standards as a DFW (or words to that effect) are right on target in my mind.
It might make for a more interesting discussion if newbiejohn would indicate why he "isn't interested in SIPs or ICFs" then the supporters of this website would have the opportunity to get involved, otherwise he'll probably only hear from aardvarcus and Jklingel who have been the primary proponents of a DFW vs SIPs and ICFs in the past. There have been many posts in connection with the pros and cons of these systems in previous threads so I see no need to get into that here, unless newbie reconsiders, and has some questions. Actually, I will repeat one of my theories in this regard: I think that maybe the DFW system makes sense when the following conditions are in place: Distance from a SIP and/or ICF manufacturer exceeds 1,000 mi or so, ready source of "cheap" and good quality framing lumber, Cheap or free labor, plenty of time, no real concerns about building "green" (Other than energy efficiency, which is probably the most important element of this concept.)
I'll sign off for now with the obligitory "No intention here to step on anybody's toes, just stating my thoughts and opinions" |
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cmkavala
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| 02/27/2009 2:00 PM |
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newbiejohn;
The way I arrive at a HVAC design is by letting the pro's do it, its not my area of expertise and "rules of thumb" do not work.
consult with an HVAC professional |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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newbiejohn
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| 02/27/2009 3:06 PM |
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The Sipper,
The only reason I mentioned no sips of ICF was because i have read alot on this site and im not really interested in my thread turning into a 'my dad can beat up your dad' type of squabble.
Im just looking for advice on how this building system will work and how to make it better by eliminating the thermal breaks and so forth.
Im really not here to start anything, im humble enough to admit Im not close to knowing all about the technologies.
I will be doing alot of this construction myself, there isnt any SIP or ICF homes close to me that im aware of etc. |
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ergodesk
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Posts:175
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| 02/27/2009 4:21 PM |
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| R-50/75 is no problem with EPS Composites. |
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Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air
http://StyroHomeNews.blogspot.com |
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greentree
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| 02/27/2009 5:25 PM |
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I've never run numbers, but the cost of SIPS maybe/probably is better than the overall cost of a double wall once you consider the repeat layout and time to frame the second wall and the additional cost to dense pack the wall if a building professional is putting your home up. I think if going the SIP route the consumer should educate themselves about the differences in manuf. and choose their manufacturer wisely (this area seems to be were all the squabbling lies). I think building a double wall structure is more forgiving to someone with not that much experience that wants to take homebuilding on.
That being said, I really disagree with the non-green comment Sipper made. The reason lumber is not as good as way back in the day is because it's coming from managed sustainable forests increasing in acreage, not decreasing.
So, Sipper, I can only agree to give you one of two, yes lumber is not as straight and you need to pick through more lumber for studs but it comes from sustainable forests and IS green. By the way, you usually can eat up most of the crooked lumber for blocking/cripples/backers/sills/headers and shoulders and really dont send all that much back. And the stuff that the good contractors reject is bought up by some dummy and used in someones project and voila, lumber gets the bad rap. |
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toddm
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| 02/27/2009 5:36 PM |
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Here is an NAHB/HUD guide to building FPSF http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/DesignGuides/revisedFPSFguide.pdf
And here is a reference where you will find the local climatic data you need to spec insulation levels: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/fpsf/
Your building officials may want a structural engineer involved. Even in areas where slabs on grade aren't common, you can often find engineers who use FPSFs as an excavation-light method of building additions. Expect some pushback from folks who don't consider them "real" foundations. |
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greentree
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| 02/27/2009 6:03 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 02/27/2009 5:36 PM
"use FPSFs as an excavation-light method of building additions."
You cannot add an addition with a frost protected shallow foundation to a structure with below grade footings without a complete isolation joint. These foundations are also known as "floating slabs" as they can move around, so you obviously dont want to connect it to a building grounded to below frost depth footings. |
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greentree
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| 02/27/2009 6:03 PM |
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dbl post
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newbiejohn
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| 02/28/2009 9:53 AM |
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| ToddM, thanks for VALUABLE information! |
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toddm
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| 02/28/2009 12:00 PM |
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John,
In areas where basements or crawl spaces are standard, you should also make sure your subs understand the design constraints of slabs on grade, particularly the need to reach undisturbed soil very quickly. I had an engineer arbitrarily site my house two feet higher than it can be built without soil engineering and fill.
Greentree, a FPSF with an unheated attached garage has elements above and below frost level. Done all the time. |
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newbiejohn
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| 02/28/2009 1:20 PM |
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| Todd can you explain to a newbie what you mean by 'reach undisturbed soil very quickly' ? Right now my lot is going to have to be built up to grade as its below grade by roughly 4-5 ft... |
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toddm
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| 02/28/2009 2:46 PM |
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Code for a FPSF is the same for a regular slab on grade, namely that the footings, or beams, have to be set in undisturbed soil. The requirement is tougher on FPSF because you only have 18 inches to 24 inches to play with. You'd usually excavate to a level pad and slope drainage away from it.
If you can't, your building officials likely will require you to hire a soil engineer to spec the type of fill and compaction you need to get a stable base. Even a regular slab on grade, with unusually deep perimeter walls, probably can't be built up by four or five feet without engineering the soil under the slab itself. Depends on the soil and the building officials. Then again, a slab with unusually deep walls might as well be a basement. |
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PanelCrafters
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| 02/28/2009 8:20 PM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 02/27/2009 11:20 AM
Guys before I start, I just want to ask that you dont FLAME ME.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself - Flame, Flame. Woo, now I feel better...
Double Wall 2x4 with 14" space for blown in dense pack cellulose using advanced framing techniques. Want about R50 in the Walls and looking to add R75 to ceiling.
Congrats!!! I think that you have mastered the most important concept: Super Insulating. How you do it(and there are many ways) is up to you. The 2nd most important consideration is moisture control. You are on your way!
Good Luck! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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greentree
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| 03/01/2009 6:58 AM |
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Posted By toddm on 02/28/2009 12:00 PM
FPSF with an unheated attached garage has elements above and below frost level. Done all the time. Todd,
Where are you at? I was at continuing ed last wed. for my license and the WI dept of Commerce code official said this code cycle, which starts in April, you will need a complete isolation joint between a conventional foundation and a FPSF to protect against frost heaving your FPSF and damaging your home grounded by a conventional foundation.
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John Clem
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| 03/01/2009 9:47 AM |
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Hi newbiejohn
I wanted to make a suggestion. I did not see that you had posted your general location in your thread. If you did, you might get some responses from some SIP or ICF suppliers/installers/distributors near you.
I know you said you were not interested in these systems, but without any explanation as to why, other than location. I am not wanting to start any type of argument or anything.
I am just suggesting that you take a closer look at other options. I do agree that you can build a fine super insulated home with DFW construction. But, you do significantly increase your construction costs in material and labor.
I am assuming that if you are capable of a DIY DFW home, you are capable of building with other systems if you do your research. SIPs and ICFs do offer some advantages over DFW and your costs, especially if you will be building it yourself, may be very comparable.
I am only making this suggestion because I do not believe you should discount these other building options because of your local or your current knowledge set. Also, if there are no SIP or ICF homes in your immediate area, take a road trip and visit some. Also if possible, talk with the owners.
Just a suggestion.
Good luck,
John
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Home Design
ICF Distributor
www.clemdesign.com |
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toddm
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| 03/01/2009 11:14 AM |
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Greentree, yes the insulated and uninsulated elements must be separated BELOW GRADE, to prevent heat transfer between them. Above grade you can build a regular bouse with an attached garage, partly on FPSF and partly on a regular foundation, or you add a room on a FPSF attached to a house on a regular basement. You can do that because the insulation, trapping heat from the house, does exactly what the name suggests. It protects the shallow foundation from frost. No frost; no heave; no problem.
Don't take my word for it. You'll find the link to the NAHB/HUD guidelines on FPSFs above. |
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greentree
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| 03/01/2009 3:46 PM |
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(e) Floating slabs. Any dwelling supported on a floating slab
on grade shall be designed through structural analysis. Structures
supported on floating slabs may not be physically attached to
structures that are supported by footings that extend below the
frost line unless an isolation joint is used between the structures.
Thats from our code, we use the UDC. The new language will now have the term "floating slab and other shallow foundation systems" or something to that effect. The code doesnt really talk about the what or how of the isolation joint, I will find out this coming week. |
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