DaveS
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| 09/17/2009 1:36 PM |
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I'll make this right to the point. Who makes the best GREEN back-up generator for back-up power? I'm thinking a bio-diesel generator would be a good choice, but I can't find anything designed specifically for bio-diesel. I don't like LP gas generators because I would like to have the ability to fuel the system myself in situations where the LP service wouldn't be available.
Our new home will be solar ready, but won't incorporate solar until prices are more attractive. Battery back-up systems are also too expensive. I am hoping, as we are near the end of our build, in 4 or 5 months, pricing will be better on the PV system, but battery technology and pricing have a ways to go. So we will be on the grid at night and low sunlight situations.
The generator is for total power outages.
DaveS
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aardvarcus
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| 09/17/2009 1:56 PM |
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| When you look at the inefficiencies involved in any internal combustion engine, the most efficient diesel engine won’t be that much more efficient at turning diesel into electricity than the least efficient one available, and for a backup type application that might run a few hours a month these minute differences wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans anyway. The greenest thing you could do in this situation is purchase a quality built generator from a reputable manufacturer that will last you for years to come. Specifically, generators that only turn at 1800 rpm have to produce 60 Hz electricity (two electrical cycles per rotation) will last much longer than cheaper models that have to turn at 3600 rpm (single electrical cycle per rotation). Also, be sure and fire it up every month to keep the cobwebs out and use fuel stabilizer to ensure the fuel doesn’t go bad. |
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Jelly
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| 09/17/2009 2:28 PM |
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| DaveS, I'm not sure where you are, but I know bio-diesel isn't easy to find where I am. And it's not going to be any easier when the city is shut down because of a hurricane. But things could be different in your location. |
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DaveS
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| 09/17/2009 2:54 PM |
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Posted By Jelly on 09/17/2009 2:28 PM
DaveS, I'm not sure where you are, but I know bio-diesel isn't easy to find where I am. And it's not going to be any easier when the city is shut down because of a hurricane. But things could be different in your location.
I am in North Central Florida. Yes, I have found a source of bio-diesel or at least I have a good lead for one. Here is my thinking; I would expect bio-diesel use would be for those instances with outages of 1 to 12 hours, but regular diesel could be used in a real emergancy where outages were weeks and bio-diesel sources are dried up. Not as Green a solution, but Solar during the day and diesel at night will keep the house running.
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DaveS
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| 09/17/2009 3:21 PM |
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Posted By aardvarcus on 09/17/2009 1:56 PM
When you look at the inefficiencies involved in any internal combustion engine, the most efficient diesel engine won’t be that much more efficient at turning diesel into electricity than the least efficient one available, and for a backup type application that might run a few hours a month these minute differences wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans anyway. The greenest thing you could do in this situation is purchase a quality built generator from a reputable manufacturer that will last you for years to come. Specifically, generators that only turn at 1800 rpm have to produce 60 Hz electricity (two electrical cycles per rotation) will last much longer than cheaper models that have to turn at 3600 rpm (single electrical cycle per rotation). Also, be sure and fire it up every month to keep the cobwebs out and use fuel stabilizer to ensure the fuel doesn’t go bad.
I think most people look at a back up generator as something needed for a few hours a month. But my thinking is, what if it's needed for weeks or longer in the the face of a natural disaster. I agree on the rpm issue and diesel engines have more torque at lower rpms and tend to last much longer than gas or LP engines. My Dad still has the 1982 ISUZU PUP Diesel truck I gave him 15 years ago after I put a new pressure treated bed to replace the rusted bed. Point is; that 4 cylinder diesel runs as good today as the day I drove it home in 1982.
If I can't find a diesel/bio-diesel generator I will consider your suggestion. Thanks
DaveS
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Brock
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| 09/18/2009 9:36 AM |
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Do you have other items that use diesel or bio-diesel? If not I would suggest going with whatever is used the most regularly at your location. If it is gasoline, then go with a gas genset.
As far as gensets are concerned if it isn't a constant run (24x7) and used primarily as backup to solar I would strongly suggest you look at the Honda or Yamaha inverter line. They can idle down as loads are reduced. I have seen numbers showing them more efficient then even diesel gensets with varying loads, which is more realistic then running at peak loading.. You could tweak them to run on E85 or E100 if you really wanted.
As far as the cost of solar PV panels coming down, I wouldn't wait. Not that I think they are going up, they have been slowly falling since I got in to RE in the early 90's. Take a look at Sun Electric, I recently found them and they have great prices. |
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Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 1.8kw solar PV setup, 3400 sq ft |
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DaveS
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| 09/18/2009 1:00 PM |
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No, I don't have anything else that will use diesel or bio-diesel. What seems most popular in the area are LP gensets. But I'm early in my search and I would like to have the most environmentally friendly genset available that is reasonably priced and fills my backup needs. I might have to settle for a LP genset, but I have to ask the GREEN questions to see if somebody somewhere knows of a really slick GREEN genset solution.
Yeah those PV panels look attractively priced. As soon as I find out what the energy needs will be in our new home I will take a hard look at adding them. Gosh knows, I would really like to have them now.
Thanks,
DaveS |
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Brock
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| 09/18/2009 4:18 PM |
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| Actually LP is pretty darn good on the emmission side compared to most. The other huge advantage of LP is storage, it doesn't care if it sits unused in a tank for 3 year where diesel and gas will both likely go bad in that much time. Again most of the inverter gensets can be switched over to LP or even bought already setup that way. |
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Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 1.8kw solar PV setup, 3400 sq ft |
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DaveS
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| 09/18/2009 7:01 PM |
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I think the LP genset will be my choice unless someone can come up with something GREENer. Thanks
DaveS |
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cmkavala
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| 09/18/2009 8:32 PM |
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Posted By DaveS on 09/18/2009 7:01 PM
I think the LP genset will be my choice unless someone can come up with something GREENer. Thanks
DaveS DaveS;
it is what I have had for 4 years,15KW generac, at the same time I converted to a Ranai tankless propane HW heater and a quick connect whip for a gas grill supplied by a 250 gal buried tank
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Chris Kavala
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DaveS
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| 09/18/2009 9:55 PM |
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Wow, 15kw sounds like a nice solution. And a connect for the gas grill is a good idea. I will look into that.
DaveS |
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jonr
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| 09/18/2009 10:07 PM |
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| I believe that propane and NG are the cleanest fuels available for generators. Of course there is pedal powered.... |
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DaveS
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| 09/19/2009 7:09 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 09/18/2009 10:07 PM
I believe that propane and NG are the cleanest fuels available for generators. Of course there is pedal powered....
Hey jonr, great idea; there are herds of squirrels around I can round up to run around a wheel to crank the generator. Now that will run on peanuts; can't beat that.  DaveS |
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cmkavala
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| 09/19/2009 8:15 AM |
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Posted By DaveS on 09/18/2009 9:55 PM
Wow, 15kw sounds like a nice solution. And a connect for the gas grill is a good idea. I will look into that.
DaveS
Dave;
I have HVAC circuit, most lights, recpts, refrigerator, Microwave circuit, overhead door opener and 15 amp circuit that powers igniter for tankless HW. system.
generator also has some exterior recepts for my neighbor to tap into
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Chris Kavala
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DaveS
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| 09/19/2009 8:27 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 09/19/2009 8:15 AM
Posted By DaveS on 09/18/2009 9:55 PM
Wow, 15kw sounds like a nice solution. And a connect for the gas grill is a good idea. I will look into that.
DaveS Dave; I have HVAC circuit, most lights, recpts, refrigerator, Microwave circuit, overhead door opener and 15 amp circuit that powers igniter for tankless HW. system. generator also has some exterior recepts for my neighbor to tap into
I don't know yet what the power requirements will be for our new home yet, so I don't know what size generator to look for until I do. However, we are going to have an induction cook top insert and I'm sure that will be power hungry. We are going to add a PV system so we are going Energy Star or better whereever we can.
Sound like you are a good neighbor to have with the exterior recepts. Our neighbors will be wild animals; no neighbors yet. We will be the first to build in a new community.
DaveS |
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jonr
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| 09/19/2009 9:30 AM |
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| I hadn't thought of squirrels. Make one big wheel with room for the dog - will keep those squirrels moving and save walking him. |
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DaveS
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| 09/19/2009 9:38 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 09/19/2009 9:30 AM
I hadn't thought of squirrels. Make one big wheel with room for the dog - will keep those squirrels moving and save walking him.
I've got 2 dogs and 4 cats. Dogs chasing the cats and the cats chasing the squirrels; should be a real TURBO Generator.
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toddm
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| 09/21/2009 9:57 AM |
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You won't find a greener generator than this: http://www.generatorsales.com/vegetable-oil-generators.asp -- or a cheaper one to operate if you are friends with the owner of a chinese restaurant (the best source of used vegetable oil.) The engine here is a clone of the slow-speed Lister diesel, which has been thumping away in the third world since 1926.
Any diesel generator will run on biodiesel with two caveats. Biodiesel will attack old-style seals and gaskets, which is no longer an issue in late model motor vehicles anyway. Biodiesel also thickens in cold weather to the point that motors stop running, which is why biodiesel is a blend of diesel and bio-, and typically very light on the bio- in the US. The genset above starts on regular diesel, warms the vegetable oil in a heat exchanger, and switches when the VO has acceptable viscosity.
If your blood pressure needs jump starting today, you can read here why Gunter in Munchen smiles and salutes U.S. taxpayers as he drives by in his biodiesel Jetta. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0608/p02s01-usec.html |
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DaveS
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| 09/21/2009 10:26 AM |
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That's pretty neat, but looks a little klunky and the noise would drive me crazy. GREEN maybe and a step in the right direction, but the noise would send us to the LUNEY BIN in record time. They would work great on a farm or a remote cabin though. This is the GREENest generator I's seen yet though. Thanks
Splash and Dash did get my blood pumping. It's too bad people, that take advantage of something intended to help the environment to line their own pockets, can't be prosecuted. What is really sad is too many people today would say; "I wish I thought of that. "
DaveS
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geome
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| 09/28/2009 3:01 PM |
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| In my opinion, during an extended power outage for natural disaster, and a person's desire to make whatever fuel they have on hand last for as long as possible (until they know more fuel is available), power usage will most likely be drastically lower than for a typical power outage. Just mentioning this so you can more realistically figure "bare bones" power usage to calculate how long the fuel supply of the generator might last. For example, people with 2 refrigerators may choose to quickly consolidate them into 1, reduce HVAC demand by adjusting the thermostat setting by 5 or 10 degrees (or just turn it off), run only 1 or 2 lights, maybe run the generator only 25% of the time, use a radio instead of a TV for situation updates, etc. |
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