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Forums > Green Building Forums > General Forum - Residential > Subject: Does ceiling height matter?

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cmkavalaUser is Offline
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05/18/2008 7:52 PM  
Posted By williamnaegeli on 05/18/2008 5:36 PM
ha ha ha no its the wood myth?
Least its not a steel myth


Chris Kavala
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05/18/2008 9:10 PM  
yeah we put steel in ICF too!
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05/18/2008 9:38 PM  
Posted By williamnaegeli on 05/18/2008 9:10 PM
yeah we put steel in ICF too!
We covered up this one to make it look better







Chris Kavala
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Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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05/19/2008 11:33 AM  

Chris,

I consider an HRV/ERV a necessity in a tightly built structure, so using it for heat distribution as well as fresh air is simply killing two birds with one stone.  My HRV can remove hot air from the ceiling and distribute it to the colder rooms on the north side of the house for the same cost as having a light on (90 watts).  It runs about 5 hours out of 24.  Instead of whipping the air up in just one room, I pull air in from the peaked ceiling in the living room (plus the kitchen and the bathroom), run it through the HRV, and redistribute it.  The only "extra" cost was running a duct up to the peak to make sure I could access that normally wasted heat. 

I actually kill three birds with one stone.  I added a 1,500 watt duct heater ($19 off of Ebay) so that I can bump up winter time incoming air temps to 90-100 degrees if I need to.  With the heating element on, it works as a mini forced air heating system blowing at 150 cfm instead of 1,500 cfm.  That way, the HRV puts warm air on the bathroom floor and under the kitchen table, both traditional locations for cold feet on cold mornings.

90 watts to run the ERV is about a third the cost of running a noisey ceiling fan and there are no blades whizzing around.  I don't care what people say, if you turn down the TV, you'll hear the ceiling fan.  I house sat at a neighbor's cabin and, compared to mine, there was a constant droning of the fan and the blades cast shadows that magnified the fact that there was a big piece of equipment churning up the air at the ceiling.  Here's a picture of what an ERV circulation system for a peaked ceiling looks like.  It's the one on the left, the other one is the smoke detector. 

It just occurred to me that if you can't hear or see a ceiling fan, a smoke detector will do you no good.

Mark






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05/19/2008 3:07 PM  

Noisy ceiling fans??????

 

Our ceiling fans, and we have six of them in our Arizona home, are the quietest that I have ever experienced!  I've tried Hampton Bay (Home Depot), Hunter, etc. and they all make a lot of noise.  These are so quiet that we can run the one in our bedroom on low, and sleep like babies!!  Take a look at www.noblewinds.com for information.

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05/19/2008 4:32 PM  
Nobody here is saying there are no inherent inefficiencies to high ceilings. The whole thread is posited on the fact they are practically negated by well done ICF/SIP construction. But, ONCE IT GETS to the set point, it stays there longer because a large volume will change temp more slowly than a small volume with the same infiltration rate.

Nobody cares about heavy-foot driving Prius, because it relates to this discussion as a fish does to a bicycle.

My IR gun has a 12:1 distance-to-spot - 12 inches away measures a 1 inch area's temp. I can shoot it 18 feet from a side wall and it shoots the same 76F/77f (depending on wall area) as when I shoot it 12 inches away. At 17 feet it shoots a 17 inch diameter area and reads 79F/80F. Doesn't matter whether I point it at the cathedral ceiling with an outstretched arm or standing on the dining room table. You pulled "45 degrees" out of nowhere.

Saying that air will stratify without a fan or A/C system on doesn't count -- we don't live like that and you don't either.

And our fans are silent, too -- with the TV off, and at 3AM in the master suite. Shop around a bit more... ;-) 
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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05/19/2008 5:09 PM  
Posted By Mark Fleming on 05/19/2008 11:33 AM

Chris,

., I pull air in from the peaked ceiling in the living room (plus the kitchen and the bathroom), run it through the HRV, and redistribute it.  

Mark;

BIG MISTAKE!....you are taking hot humid air from your bath area and putting it back into your house.
Plus when someone takes a dump in the bathroom it will be shared by the whole household?


Chris Kavala
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05/19/2008 5:15 PM  

glenfotre;

Ditto ............ our MB fans runs 24/7 - 365 for last 7 years, has never kept me awake


Chris Kavala
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05/19/2008 5:25 PM  
Chris,

If Mark takes the bathroom air into an HRV, isn't that exhausted out of the house and the fresh air then circulated?

Mark,

What's the access door for at the peak?

Very respectfully,
Larry

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05/19/2008 5:36 PM  
Larry;

Mark said he was
"I pull air in from the peaked ceiling in the living room (plus the kitchen and the bathroom),"
 If he is pulling from those areas and it goes thu the HRV - it only comes out one exhaut either in or out, it sound like he is bronging in fresh air but exhausting nothing.
He might as well take off the dryer vent and blow it back into the house too

Chris Kavala
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05/20/2008 12:05 AM  

DallasBill,

My IR shoots 45 degrees.  That's the air I pulled the figure out of.  I've never ever seen one that shoots as narrow as yours.  What brand?

There seems to be some misunderstanding on how an ERV/HRV operates.  It takes moist air out of the bath, lutefisk smells out of the kitchen, and hot air out of the peak.  That air is exhausted, period.  Incoming air passes it in the air-to-air heat exchanger and is distributed as warm fresh air.  Since an HRV/ERV is required in tight construction, I just designed mine to replace furnace, ceiling fans, bath fan, etc.  In fact, I put the timer that controls the periods during which it runs right next to the toilet.  Should you decide when on the pot that you'd like a fan on, you simply push the override button and the fan runs.  It DOES NOT distribute that air around the house, thankfully.

I didn't realize ceiling fans were so expensive.  Makes my HRV and duct work seem like a bargain.  Nice to know that they do make quite ones.  Why is it that the uglier they are, the more they cost?

The "door" in the peak is my code compliant attic access.  The inspector was leary at first, but the code states access door size, not whether it has to be in a ceiling, as is most common.  It also doesn't require fold-down stairs, etc.  I had just enough room to put the access in the peak, thereby leaving all of the truss cords free to have OSB as flooring for storage space.  I'm planning on a tall book shelf right underneath the door with a bookshelf ladder that will serve double duty as attic access.  The hardware is new old stock nickel-plated icebox hinges and latches, an Ebay find.  I bought 10 sets, so other cabinets and closets have matching icebox hardware.  But I tell kids they are freezers where I keep icecream.

Mark

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05/20/2008 7:30 AM  
Posted By Mark Fleming on 05/20/2008 12:05 AM

There seems to be some misunderstanding on how an ERV/HRV operates.  It takes moist air out of the bath, lutefisk smells out of the kitchen, and hot air out of the peak.  That air is exhausted, period.  Incoming air passes it in the air-to-air 

Mark;

I know how they work and how the core works.  If the ERV/HRV is ducted  to the outside , then it's exhausted.
You said you were re-cirulating (exhasting to another room)? that means you are putting air back into conditioned space?
Which is it? it can't be both


Chris Kavala
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05/20/2008 10:49 AM  
It is both, but I wasn't clear.  The air is exhausted.  The heat is recirculated.

I put simple dampers in several of the ducts, both stale and fresh air.  It allows me to not only make sure that the overall system is pressure neutral (total intake=total exhaust), but also decide which areas in the structure get more or less circulation.  I have an intake in the attic, which is conditioned space, in theory, but normally doesn't have it's own vents to an HRV.  I also have a vent in the basement/garage to ensure fresh air down there.  The basement walls are all concrete, with the exception of the garage door, and would likely have high humidity without the HRV.  An HRV doesn't exchange moisture like an ERV.  Damp air is exhausted without effecting the humidity of incoming air.  In the maritime Pacific Northwest, air that's "too dry" isn't a problem.  We also deal much more with heating than cooling.

The house will have an ERV, but mainly because that was the best Ebay deal.  Started the footings this week.

Mark






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05/20/2008 11:00 AM  
Posted By Mark Fleming on 05/20/2008 10:49 AM
It is both, but I wasn't clear.  The air is exhausted.  The heat is recirculated.

Mark


It is hard to follow exactly what you are doing but ,  I still beleive you are setting yourself up for major mold issues by changing the funtionality of the sytem

Do you have a seperate exterior intake and a seperate exterior exhaust?
when I say exterior , I do not mean attic

Chris Kavala
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Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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05/20/2008 11:08 AM  
DallasBill said

"Nobody cares about heavy-foot driving Prius, because it relates to this discussion as a fish does to a bicycle."

Sorry my example wasn't clear.  Let's use the one people are giving here, i.e., "my ceiling fan is quiet because I can sleep with it on." 

I often sleep on a jet.  Must be quiet, right?  No.  Sleeping doesn't equal silent.  We get used to "quiet" just as we get used to "good gas mileage."  All is relative. 

I'm not saying that there aren't silent ceiling fans, just that I've never experienced one that is silent when operating at a speed sufficient to produce the required air movement.  I've also never seen one that didn't have big blades whipping around.  I've also never seen one that was attractive.  But again, all is relative.  For those who don't like ceiling fans as a remedy for the problems created by high ceilings, there are alternatives.

Mark
GeorgiaTomUser is Offline
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05/20/2008 11:16 AM  
Mark;

just a FYI those ceiling fans have a little switch thingy on the side so you can slow it down ( whiz free) or you can get the real high tech reostats that can control it from down below

No wizzin or whippin going on in my house!

There are greener solutions for cars and houses too ....... a tent and a burrow
Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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05/20/2008 11:47 AM  
Chris,

The system is set up just as a standard HRV.  Interior air is exhausted, carring moisture, smells, and heat.  It passes through an air-to-air heat exchanger.  The heat is recirculated in that it is transferred to the incoming fresh air stream.  Because it is an HRV and not an ERV, there is no moisture transfer.  All pretty standard stuff. 

My humidity has steadily dropped since drying in the structure.  Even though we sometimes don't visit the sight for 3 or 4 weeks, with all windows closed the structure remains fresh feeling inside.  Must more pleasant than our house in Seattle.  Much less dusty than our house.  At first, I had some condensation on the basement garage windows, but since the concrete has cured and I added an HRV vent down there, the humidity there has also dropped and the temperature stabilized.  (I have recording temp and humidity instruments I acquired years ago for various projects).

My "non-standard" HRV additions aren't really that unique.  I knew that a peaked ceiling could trap hot air, so I put a exhaust vent up there.  Placing an exhaust vent in the bathroom is common.  Placing one in the kitchen can have it's drawbacks if it is situated so that it can pull in greasy air.  Your choices are 1) don't fry food, or 2) have a really good hood fan. 

My other change is a duct heater in the incoming air stream installed after the HRV.  It's a commercially fabricated heater that has a pressure sensor tube connecting into both pre-fan and post-fan air ducts.  $19 off of Ebay, otherwise I would never have paid the $750 these sell for new.  If the HRV fan isn't running, there's no pressure diffential and the heating element can't come on.  If bees build in the incoming duct, or somebody places a box against all the outlet ducts, the element can't come on.  If the ductwork around the element gets above 100 degrees, it trips a fuse that resets.  If above 140 degrees, it trips a fuse that has to be reset (I have to go up through the little door in the peak). The element is only 1,500 watts, same as a little space heater, and it has it's own 15 amp circuit.  If the house is cold, it comes on to ensure that incoming air temps are boosted to about 100 degrees.  It runs about 6 hours out of 24.  When we aren't there in the winter, it keeps the space in the low 50s when it's freezing cold outside.  Sounds more complex than it is.

An HRV comes with an internal filter for the incoming air.  I also put one in for the exhaust air.  That way, there's not much chance of the heat exchanger losing it's efficiency because of dust.  Also, I can check on the indoor air quality by looking at the filter.  There was some construction dust (mainly drywall), but that seems to have all cleared out.

The system seems to really reduce any chance of mold.  I was going to link it to a humidistat so that it came on if the humidity got high, but that hasn't been an issue.  Since the controller for the HRV is by the toilet, we turn it on in addition to the bathroom fan when taking a shower. 

To keep the system really quiet, I did two things.  First, I connected a 10 foot length of flexible insulated duct to both the intake and exhaust sides of the HRV before going into standard 6 inch galv. duct.  That eliminated any fan noise in the ductwork.  The change was amazing.  Second, I put a scrap of foam under the HRV and small pieces between the duct and any structual members as sound insulation.  The fridge is by far the noisiest thing in the structure.  My only mold problem is leftovers in the fridge.


Mark
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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05/20/2008 2:06 PM  
Mark;

Still hard for me to envision what is going on with your system, there are only 4 connections on the HRV/ERVs
I realize that you can split off and add intakes or exhausts as I did the same with mine, however since there is just one motor with 2 squirrel cages using dampers will not positively pressurize as the motor will only go at one speed for both intake and exhaust
If it's working for you then that good

Chris Kavala
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05/22/2008 1:21 AM  
Mark, I see some footing forms started...are you going to use Fast Foot method? Sorry not pertinent to the thread, but you did post the pic. Will be starting our footings in a month or so and was curious. Dave
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05/22/2008 12:29 PM  
Chris,

Mine has two separate fans with blades instead of cages.  But it is possible to adjust flows with a singe fan.  It is the duct resistance that determines flow, not just fan speed.  I helped install an ERV a few years ago that had nipples for attaching a manometer right on the unit (another gadget that I have).  In/out was adjusted with a damper while watching the manometer and (hopefully) insuring that there was no negative/positive pressure generated by the unit.  By restricting flow, it was possible to adjust it even though it only had one fan.

I have some doubts about the benefit of direct attachment of a manometer.  Pressure in the intake and exhaust dct right at the unit might not accurately figure in the flow characteristics of the entire duct work.  On my ERV, my exhaust system is simpler and shorter than my fresh air distribution system, plus, I have the duct heater in that side of the system.  I need more pressure in that duct inorder to avoid negative pressure in the house.  I think the best pressure test might be a calm day with a little incense smoke by a window that's just cracked open.  Turn on the ERV/HRV and see which way the smoke goes.

Farmboy,

Since we've gotten away from high ceilings, yes, that is preparation for Fast Footer.  Never used it before, but it looks like it will be fine.  Yesterday, I got delivery on 16' 2x4s, so the rest of the footer form should go fast.  My concern is with possible delays once the material is tacked on.  If there is a delay in the pour (inspector, ready mix, whatever), how will the plastic bag material stand up to the high afternoon winds we get this time of year?  Don't know and, hopefully, won't find out.  I've got some sand on site and could use that as a "paper weight" but would prefer to keep the shovel work to a minimum.

Mark

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