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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Solar and Wind Power > Subject: My future green home

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mdelzerUser is Offline
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Posts:5




03/30/2008 5:20 PM  
Does anyone remember the playground equipment that use to be called a witch's hat?  it was pretty much just a poll standing up with a gian ring around it that attached to the top of the poll with chains holding the ring about 4-5 feet off the ground.  The top allowed it all to pivot and rotate in a cirlce.  The reason I bring this up is that it seems there are SOOOOOO many options for how to build an efficient home now a days and picking the ideas you'd like to incorporate is kind of like playing on a witches hat as the possibilities are infinite to get it to balance out.  Let me go over briefly what I'd like to incorporate in my home as well as where I live and I'll touch on the topics as I go.  I'm looking for input regarding the project as a whole so I can really build something that works and is hopefully sustainable. 

Where: Western Michgian
How big: 1500-2500 max
Home type: Ranch with finished basement
Heating type: Radiant
Heating source: Geothermal?
Cooling type: Small duct high velocity like a Unico
Cooling source: Geothermal?
Lighting control: Lutron or Crestron central panel based lighting system  (very expensive, yes...I'll cover this below)
Light type: Low voltage LED based (expensive, yes)
Thermostats:  Crestron Thermostats programmed for rollback during night hours and while away or unused
Sensors:  Motion, photo voltiac, and possibly RFID for programming to auto adjust the systems (lights, hvac, electronics)
Electrical management:  Switched outlets tied in with the lighting panels to turn off special electronics outlets throughout based on usage (example, plasma outlet, computer outlet, etc.)
Insulation type: Foam
Exterior wall construction: ?? open to suggestions
Windows:  ?? open to suggestions
Window treatment:  Motorized shades for key windows to be integrated with HVAC, lighting, and photo voltiac sensors
Hot water:  Solar or tankless electric
Grey water: I have only found Brac Systems, any others?
Run off water collection:  ?? open to suggestions

That's the basics of what I want.  The trick is weighing the benefits of one thing with the costs and benefits of another.  For example I've mostly ruled out doing a PV solar system for electrical due to the costs vs. the gain.  That doesn't mean I won't do it, if I can build a home that is efficient enough that I can get 50% or better off of a PV system that is no more then 3 kilo-watts in size I'll do it.  Problem is I won't know if I've pulled it off until the rest of the home is complete.  Plus maybe someday the prices of PV will come down significantly, another reason I'm affraid to make a big plunge with it.

Geothermal is something I don't know enough about yet to know if it's worth it.  What I do know is that for what a normal high efficiency system will cost me, I'm almost better off spending the extra cash on it.  Ideally I'd like to have multiple zones, but short term I'd be willing to have 1 or 2 major zones.  From what I understand about the radiant hydronic systems this shouldn't be a problem.  Along with the multiple zones I'd like to do 1 zone for the garage to keep it above freezing in the winter so I can rinse the salt off my cars regularly without it freezing.  I'd also like to have a snow melt system that I'll definitely install the hyronic hose for, but budget may determine if it gets put in immediately.  With all that water getting pumped around, am I still going to pay a fortune for electricity or will the effiecny of the rest of my home staying warm and cool respetively in the winter and summer determine my costs more then anything.

As for the expensive stuff; Crestron, Lutron, automation, programming etc.  Those things are what I do for a living, I work as a control systems programmer programming large homes to do various functiongs to make life easier.  Because of my access to the necessary parts, knowledge, and my own personal time spent programming the system to function efficiently my costs will be greatly reduced.

That pretty much covers the basics.  I'd like to get feedback regarding any and all aspects of what I want to do, I'm by know means an expert on any of this but I am a professional problem solver so eventually I'll get there. 

Mark
Road BlockUser is Offline
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Posts:46




03/31/2008 8:47 AM  

I'm in the planning stage of the same kind of house that you are planning on.  If you PM me I'll send you some links for some interesting sites dealing with homes and energy efficiency. 

Take a look at pathnet.org, under "resources" click on "Tool Inventory" and go the area you are interested in.  You will find a lot of information describing the technology, manufacturers and results.  They do not list every manufacturer so you still have to search but at lest you know what you are looking for. 

Some of the more interesting technologies at pathnet are combined heat/cooling power units, alternative septic systems, solar lighting via fiber optic and heat pump water heaters.

Consider adding a residential fire sprinkler.

Consider PEX for plumbing.


Go to http://www.dsireusa.org/ for a list of federal and state energy incentives.  You may find that solar is a little more affordable.  Take a look at wind as well www.awea.org  or maybe micro-hydro if you have the water.

I’m planning on a whole house battery UPS system that is tied into wind, PV and a small generator total is estimated at $15-18,000 which is a lot cheaper than having seperate sytems for PV and wind then adding a standby generator.  Try outbackpower.com or xantrex.com. Take a look at bannerpower.com but they are extremely pricy for what you get.   I’m working with one supplier in MN www.backuppowersource.com to get everything connected while minimizing cost.

As far as Geo thermal go to the Geothermal sub forum on this site.  There are a couple threads that are well worth reading.

You didn't mention the most important feature of your house.  What type of construction is it going to be SIPS, ICF, stick or something else.  FWIW we are going SIPS with precast foundation.  Go to the subforums here for more info. 

Graywater or Greywater search on both spellings.  I've run across a number of sites dealing with the subject.  http://www.towtrc.state.tx.us/common/GraywaterLiteratureSearch.pdf

If you have the land and trees consider harvesting trees that are going to come down anyway and find a custom sawmill, kiln drying and milling operation that specializes in small batches.  I have and will be getting quarter sawn sycamore and red maple and plank sawn hickory and white oak for flooring, cabinets and trim for $2-3/board foot.  Not only is it cheaper but it ties the house in to the area nicely.

 

mdelzerUser is Offline
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Posts:5




04/06/2008 11:07 AM  
I've been a bit busy with work lately but what I'm trying to decipher at the moment is how different technologies would cancel each other out. For example, lets say I put in a MCHP system for hydronic heating. What is more efficient at this point for hot water? An 80 gallon hot water tank or an electric on demand water heater? In the winter time I can see that the 80 gallon tank would probably work out better because the energy from the MCHP will constantly keep it at a moderate temp. However how much EXTRA electric energy in the summer will the tank use to maintain temperature when the MCHP is not running? Better yet, do I take it a step further with some electronic change over solenoids that switch off depending on the season? I probably won't go with a MCHP anyway, but these are the kinds of questions that finding the answers to without making a decision first to find out the result later are hard to get answers for.

I'm actually leaning towards geothermal for heating through hydronic. Can hydronic be an effective cooling option as well? Being that heat rises it kind of raises and interesting question. Or is the variable based on your local climates and how hot it really does get where you live. I recently was in a house on Lake Michigan where the home automation integrator put the homes radiant floors on separate thermostats from the Unico A/c system. I believe the end result was that the floors had to be replaced because the floors and the A/C had been running against each other for several days because it was a vacation home. As you can imagine the home practically had it's own climate system going on with the cold and warm air mixing.

As for the other major energy contributions, I was considering a change over inverter system based on a natural gas generator, some solar panels, and batteries. Perhaps with something like the GridPoint system http://www.gridpoint.com/consumer/products/connect/ The Lucid Design Group also seems to be doing similar energy things that the Gridpoint system does except they are expanding it to collect data on water usage and use of other resources. Currently from what I can see though the Lucid stuff is more vapor ware then anything else. Does it exist, sure. But it's not like I can go to their website and get the tech specs on their products and systems and find what will work for me.

Other things I've been thinking more about are size.  I like to tinker so I need some extra garage space and my wife and I would like a shared hobby room somewhere in the main house.  I'm thinking I'd like to have a 3 stall garage that has an extra 10 feet or so in front of the parked cars for 2 stalls and the third stall is just deep enough for a car and probably small enough that getting out on the wall side would not be possible once the car is in the stall.  Almost more of a toy storage then anything.  That said I'd like to keep the entire living space in the 1500 sq. foot range.  If I don't need it, I don't want it.  Most rooms will be sized based on function and furniture requirements.  My goal for this size of a home is to achieve a gas/electrical bill range that is no more then $35-70 a month year round.  Does anyone think this is not realistic?  My inlaws live in a VERY inefficient ranch that has about an 800 sq. foot main with a basement that runs $200 a month to heat to a chilly 68 in the winter.  So I'm hoping that the efficient side of life can significantly reduce that cost on a similarly sized home.

That's all for now....also I've bought some URLs that I'm going to use to put up a website in the near future about this project.

Mark
PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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Posts:1329





04/06/2008 4:34 PM  

Mark,
   My 1st priority(and should be for most others) is to Super Insulate. When you reduce your Heat Loss/Gain, you are already way ahead of the game. It also reduces the amount of energy required, and thus minimizes the importance of your mechanical systems. Sure efficient mechanicals are important, but if you are only using 25%(or less) energy than your neighbor only so much more savings can be accomplished.

   Start with Super Insulating, and everything else becomes a bit simpler, and your other paths easier to choose.

Good Luck! 

 


....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
mdelzerUser is Offline
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Posts:5




04/06/2008 4:49 PM  
Thanks, that's definitely priority number one, however I've not made that clear in my prior posts because I don't have a direction I'm going to go in first. My initial thoughts began with 2x6 stud construction and closed cell foam. My hopes is that I can reduce the size of my mechanical systems as well as make them function minimally to maintain. As you said, everything else is icing on the cake.

Mark
Road BlockUser is Offline
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Posts:46




04/07/2008 10:40 AM  

For example, lets say I put in a MCHP system for hydronic heating. What is more efficient at this point for hot water? An 80 gallon hot water tank or an electric on demand water heater? In the winter time I can see that the 80 gallon tank would probably work out better because the energy from the MCHP will constantly keep it at a moderate temp. However how much EXTRA electric energy in the summer will the tank use to maintain temperature when the MCHP is not running? Better yet, do I take it a step further with some electronic change over solenoids that switch off depending on the season? I probably won't go with a MCHP anyway, but these are the kinds of questions that finding the answers to without making a decision first to find out the result later are hard to get answers for.

 

You’re right to consider how everything in the house connects, you could save a lot of money by not buying systems that don’t work well together efficiently or effectively.  Make a master plan of what you want and build accordingly.  We are including the infrastructure for systems that we may not have installed right away because of cost or we think technology will change in the near future.  For example I haven’t found a grey water system that satisfies our requirements but we are still going to install a dual drain system and allow for room in the basement for the system.    

 

I’ve looked into the MCHP and for on grid use I don’t see the advantage, it is a good ideal for some situations.  You still only get 85-90% efficiency out of your fuel and the units are not cheap.  Why not just buy a 90-94% efficient heater, it is a lot less expensive and the install would be less expensive as well.  I think MCHP makes sense for remote sites or for back up power if you have a battery system but not the typical on grid customer.  I’m trying to find a stirling engine that would connect to a wood fired outdoor furnace that will be used to heat the detached garage and snow melt systems.  No luck yet.

 

Take a look at ground source/geothermal and consider a superdeheater for the hot water.

 

As far as on demand hot water.  I think they are great, but they are not the solution for every situation.  We originally were going to install them in the new house but after reading about  how they operate most effectively and mapping out  our requirements and the other systems we realized that  on demand would not be the best solution for us. 

I'm actually leaning towards geothermal for heating through hydronic. Can hydronic be an effective cooling option as well?   

Search in the geothermal forum, I believe the answer is no, but there have been several discussions about that subject.

 


As for the other major energy contributions, I was considering a change over inverter system based on a natural gas generator, some solar panels, and batteries. Perhaps with something like the GridPoint system.

 

That is what I’m looking to do with the Outback system.  Just a quick look at GridPoint I don’t see any provision for 240 volt which would be needed for your ground source heat pump.

 

You really want  to do a life cycle cost analysis on that NG generator, very expensive to feed vs gasoline or diesel.  I only know about the outback system, but if the generator is running the power by passes the batteries and feeds the house directly.  So if you have voltage/cycle sensitive equipment like computers you need close to utility grade power.  I’m planning on using a Honda EU series generator with a automatic start controlled inverter/charger.

 

 

Other things I've been thinking more about are size.  I like to tinker so I need some extra garage space and my wife and I would like a shared hobby room somewhere in the main house.  I'm thinking I'd like to have a 3 stall garage that has an extra 10 feet or so in front of the parked cars for 2 stalls and the third stall is just deep enough for a car and probably small enough that getting out on the wall side would not be possible once the car is in the stall. .  That said I'd like to keep the entire living space in the 1500 sq. foot range. 

 

Consider excavating under the garage for additional space.  My architect said the cost is very cheap because you are having to make a structural floor for the garage anyway.  Most of the dirt has been removed to build a ramp for the equipment and crews to get in the basement for foundation and floor work, then the dirt has to be put back and compacted before the garage slab is poured, so you pay to make a hole then pay again to fill the hole.    As long as you are sinking a lot of money into the foundation and floor for the garage why not excavate under the garage and get some cheap space that way?   Depending on the orientation of the house and land terrain you could even have a footprint of 1,500sf and put the garage in the basement.  

tb1472000User is Offline
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Posts:13




04/09/2008 9:31 PM  

One item that probably isn't the best choice would be to pair automatic setback with a hydronic radiant system. Research the subject some more and you'll probably find the consensus is that radiant systems do not respond quickly enough to warrant using setback with them. Setback seems to normally be recommended with all other system. Perhaps you meant to just be just using setback with the AC and not the hydronic which would be good.

It'll be interesting to see if how your cost/benefit comparison goes with some of your very options I'll be particularly interested in seeing your cost benefit analysis on the LED technology.

Good Luck,

Bruce

zazeemUser is Offline
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Posts:3




05/14/2008 10:44 PM  
I plan on buildign this

http://www.simondale.net/house/index.htm

exact same home in the foothills Maine.

It will cost under 20k for the whole house too , one less thing to worry about.. a mortgage!
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