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ronaldsauve Registered Users
Posts:17

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| 04/02/2008 3:20 PM |
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The hwindows may or may not be good windows, I have no experience with them. But it seems to me that what we're talking about here in terms of Alpen, Thermotech, or others are a breed apart, when compared with the normally available windows. This is because they are high performance windows. R-values at 10 or above, in some cases far above. The typically available windows, some of them very good windows, like Andesens or Marvins have their own merits; i.e., for the average person I typically recommend Andersens, if only because they are very reliable and dependable. They will have parts available 20 or 30 years out for windows made today. I tell people they are like the Toyota of windows in that sense; very reliable.
However, for customers that want a truly high performance window and home, I recommend windows and doors in the league we are talking about here in this thread. Comparing others to these is kind of like comparing a Toyota to a Porche; a bit of a stretch to say the least, at least in terms of performance. |
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windowguy71 Registered Users
Posts:5

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| 04/03/2008 11:43 AM |
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| Fibertec are not exactly what they seem. They also sell aluminum windows as shown on their website. Perhaps they should be called Fiberluminum??? Alpen was just recognized as a TOP 10 GREEN BUILDING PRODUCT last year, only window on the list. Great product, very knowledgeable staff. |
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pringstrom Registered Users
Posts:10

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| 04/03/2008 3:06 PM |
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No, I don't work for H Window. I have seen their windows up close in person. They are very substantial and were available in the large sizes that I needed (40"w x 46"h). You can rotate these windows and clean them from the inside, which I found useful. The cost is about 75% of Thermotech. I also got a price from Accurate Dorwin (http://www.accuratedorwin.com) which are fiberglass. Their price was 50% of Thermotech. Obviously, if price is a consideration, you have some choices.
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Stephen T Registered Users
Posts:10

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| 04/03/2008 7:56 PM |
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While we would perhaps obviously have at least philosophical differences w/ Fibertec, i don't think it's fair to think less of them because they make aluminum windows.
Lots of companies diversify. Diversification is not itself an evil.
Furthermore while aluminum windows are normally less energy efficient than windows made from other materials, 'normally' isn't the same as 'always'.
Energy efficient windows can be made w/ fiberglass, wood, vinyl and yes even aluminum. I would of course, being biased, argue that it might be easier to make an energy efficient window in fglass........
But first a bit of background. the Passiv Haus (PH) program is catching alot of attention in Europe these days. Interest in North America is growing too. I'm told that 20% of the new houses in Austria will be built to this standard. These houses require windows have U<0.14 in imperalistic units or about R-7.
Now Europeans and North Americans don't calculate U exactly the same way, and there are differences in the stnd sizes used to calculate U --- so R-7 there isn't necessarily the same as R-7 here..... Furthermore we get more solar radiation in North America, so the bulkier frames favoured by Europeans can block alot of free heat from the sun - heat that people in North America's heating climates might want.
But drifting back to topic of aluminum windows being degrading to make take a look at :
http://www.e2a.de/e2a/img/aktuell/200501/zukunfthaus/09%20Passivhauskomponenten/Fenst/Daten/D_Joschko_Winplus.pdf
This pdf shows an aluminum window that meets the PH program's criteria. In other words an aluminum window that is likely more energy efficient than what ? - 95%+ ? of the windows made in North America.
So if it was me, i wouldn't necessarily ignore a company just because they make aluminum windows --- although i might ignore them if they didn't make a low U, high SHGC window........
Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestration
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Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestraion Ottawa, Ontario |
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windowguy71 Registered Users
Posts:5

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| 04/04/2008 1:19 PM |
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Stephen
I do not disagree that there are some very good aluminum windows, however my issue is that Fibertec mention only fiberglass in their website. Then to place a pic of aluminum windows and not to clarify or point it out, would be considered in most peoples eyes as perhaps misleading. But comparing apples to apples, aluminum vs fiberglass, fiberglass is always better. I have used them exact same profile for my curtainwall and guess which one was 10% more energy efficient every time. Therefore I can use different glass saving more$$$$
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drogers Registered Users
Posts:68

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| 04/04/2008 2:21 PM |
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| Check out this website http://www.nfrc.org/ . I have my doubts of the claims that are being thrown around in some of the replies. No one seems to concerned about air infiltration, you should be. We at one time sold Kolbe and Kolbe windows and doors. They were just very well made windows that did what they claimed. I sold my log home business and am no longer working so I have no involvement other than to have you make the best informed opinion posssible. |
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Todd6286 Registered Users
Posts:38

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| 04/15/2008 3:55 AM |
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Stephen or anyone else who knows -
Is there a way that a dude with a calculator (i.e. me) can calculate the ER value of a window based on having the raw data (U - SHGC - VT).
This sure sounds like a great concept (the ER #) and I agree that too many folks care about U value/R only and don't factor in how much heat they are rejecting. Since the NFRC website doesn't list it I'd like to be able to generate it.
Thanks in advance - Todd
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Stephen T Registered Users
Posts:10

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| 04/17/2008 2:15 PM |
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Sorry for the slow response
ER for those that are interested is short for Energy Rating. For more info see:
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/renovate/windowsanddoors/section6.cfm?text=N&printview=N
The ER approach (ER= gains-losses) is a heating climate approach. First used in Canada, the UK rating system is based on a similar approach, see:
http://www.tangram.co.uk/TI-Glazing-Window_Energy_Rating.html
Recently the ER was changed.
In the original equation an ER of 0 means the window loses as much energy as it gains over a heating season.. A positive ER means the window gains more energy than it loses over the heating season. A negative ER means……you get the picture.
The ER was never meant to predict actual energy use/contribution of a window in your house. Rather like the mileage ratings for cars it’s meant to serve as a comparison between different windows.
So in general,
ER = solar gain - conduction losses – air leakage losses
Or more specifically,
oldER = 72.2*SHGC - 21.9*U – 0.54*L75/A
72.2 is the avg solar gain on a vertical surface for Canada in W/m^2 (it’s an avg of NSEW for the major cities per hour over the 211 day heating season)
SHGC is the whole window SHGC for a stnd sized window
21.9 is the average Canadian (major cities) indoor outdoor temperature difference over the 211 day heating season in degrees Kelvin (Celsius)
U is the whole window insulating value in W/m^2K (Uimperial * 5.678 = Umetric)
0.54 is the Pressure Factor
L75/A is the measured air leakage at 75 Pa for a standard sized window in m^3/h
For those that are interested ER has units. They are W/m^2.
If I was doing my own ER calculations from manufacturer’s data I'd ignore the air leakage term – on an one example leaving out this term over estimates the ER by only 0.2 W/m^2
Recently the ER equation was changed
- the stnd or reference sizes were increased
- the SHGC term was multiplied by 0.8 to notionally account for shading.
- a fourth term (+40) was added to end of the equation to avoid manufacturers the embarrassment of having to report negative numbers
I still like the numerical elegance of the older version, that’s why I started with that version
If you compare the Canadian ER to the UK version, you can see they’ve accounted for their cloudier and warmer climate.
There is also yet another variation called ERs or Energy Rating Specific. It uses city specific indoor outdoor temperature differences and orientation specific solar data. This allows orientation by orientation comparisons.
As an alternative to all this you may want to try LBL's Resfen program. It's free.
http://windows.lbl.gov/software/resfen/resfen.html
And that’s probably enough for now
Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestration
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Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestraion Ottawa, Ontario |
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Todd6286 Registered Users
Posts:38

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| 04/30/2008 12:46 PM |
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Stephen -
This is very excellent - thanks for supplying it. I will definately use it when I shop for windows.
My question is - you say that "72.2 is the avg solar gain on a vertical surface for Canada" - I assume that this means for a window of average orientation -
Since my house will be directly north facing (declination accounted for) - and my house will be ICF (i.e. thick wall with slight window shading accounted for by being recessed into the wall a bit) and I will plant heavy vegetation on the north side (4-5 good size trees) - the windows on the north side (I live in Cleveland) should almost never get any direct sunlight.
So would it seem reasonable to use the ER calculation for other windows (the south east and west ones) only and just go for low U value on the north windows? |
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Stephen T Registered Users
Posts:10

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| 04/30/2008 6:41 PM |
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Todd:
It sounds like you are interested in something more accurate than the averaging inherent in ER. Better than the ER is the ERS. I mentioned it in my previous post:
“ There is also yet another variation called ERS or Energy Rating Specific. It uses city specific indoor outdoor temperature differences and orientation specific solar data. This allows orientation by orientation comparisons. “
Before explaining about ERS, I will again remind everyone that:
ER (and ERS) were never meant to predict actual energy use/contribution of a window in your house. Rather like the mileage ratings for cars it’s meant to serve as a comparison between different windows. --- in a heating climate.
If you are interested in predicting energy use, you need a computer simulation tool like; Energy-10, HOT2000 or the like.
However, ERS is still useful. It’s more accurate than ER - because it requires that the 3 co-efficients for sun, temperature and wind be changed for local conditions.
Todd, you’re in Cleveland so I’m going to give you data for Windsor, ON
A) Coefficient for Sun
In the ER equation the average solar gain for a vertical surface is 72.2 W/m^2 (averaged the 211 day or 5064 hr heating season for and average CDN city)
For Windsor the average solar gain by orientation is as follows:
S 121.9
SE/SW 102.2
E/W 67.1
NE/NW 42.0
N 36.6
So Windsor is pretty average, for Canada, when it comes to solar gain
B) Coefficient for Temperature
In the ER equation the average indoor outdoor temperature difference is 21.9 over the 211 day (5064 hour) heating season in degrees Kelvin (Celsius)
For Windsor, ON the average temperature difference is:
19.0
So Windsor is warmer than average CDN city
C) Coefficient for Wind
In the ER equation the Pressure Factor is 0.54
For Windsor, ON the average temperature difference is:
0.344
So Windsor is less windy than average CDN city
(Again, this term has very little meaning for a new window – even with a relatively drafty new window its hard for this term to affect the ER by more than 0.5 W/m^2K)
And that’s probably enough for now
Any questions?
Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestration |
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Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestraion Ottawa, Ontario |
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Oberon Registered Users
Posts:18

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| 05/01/2008 7:26 AM |
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21.9 is the average Canadian (major cities) indoor outdoor temperature difference over the 211 day heating season in degrees Kelvin (Celsius)
Good morning Stephen,
It is early, and I haven't had breakfast or shower yet, and I am still groggy, so I am a little fuzzy on the Kelvin (Celsius) thing.
Thanks
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Stephen T Registered Users
Posts:10

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| 05/01/2008 8:36 AM |
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Yikes!!
Who said metric was easy???
After some groggy reconsideration myself.......(where did i put with my coffee this time?)
I think i'm OK on this one
Despite different starting points ( 0 Celsius is when water freezes/thaws, 0 Kelvin is about 273 degrees colder) the degrees are the same size.
So if my house warmed up 1 degree Celsius, i could also say it warmed 1 degree Kelvin --- I would be a thermal geek, but i would be a correct thermal geek. For reference in imperialistic units it warmed up 9/5 of a degree Farenheit or more commonly 1.8 degrees Farenheit
So i think i'm OK to say the difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures is 21.9 K
Less academically, this means that based on an assumed indoor temperature of 21 Celsius (about 70F) the average outdoor air temperature in Windsor, over the assumed 211 day heating season is about -1C (about 30 F)
I wanted to say Kelvin, because the ER and ERS have units and they are most commonly expressed as W/m^2K or Watts per square meter per degree Kelvin --- so i wanted to keep the temperature units consistent even though here in 'Metric' Canada nobody but nobody gives a weather report in degrees Kelvin!
for more info the degrees of degrees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius
Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestration
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Stephen Thwaites P.Eng. Thermotech Fiberglass Fenestraion Ottawa, Ontario |
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Oberon Registered Users
Posts:18

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| 05/01/2008 8:52 AM |
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Okay. Had shower. Had breakfast.
Now I understand what you meant. Makes perfect sense...
When I read the calculations the first time thru, all I could think of was that 22K is somewhere about -250C and I just wasn't able to wrap my head around the Kelvin (Celsius) part of the answer.
Metric easy?
What can one expect from a system invented in France (with due apologies to all our Francophile friends)(J/K BTW!).
Thanks for the clarification and have a great day.
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eastsound Registered Users
Posts:15

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| 05/16/2008 10:29 PM |
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All:
This discussion string is very long, so I will try tgo be brief. I started installing Fibertec windows on my project today (www.project955.com). I selected Fibertec for many of the reasons already stated in the numerous posts. However, my project uses quite a few round-top windows, and as far as I know, fibertec is the only manufacturer that makes these round-top units in extruded fiberglass - - they call it a segmented window as they chemically and mechanically join small straight segments of the fiberglass to form a round-top unit. Other fiberglass manufacturer make their round-top units in aluminum or vynal-clad wood, which is not as desirable, especially in a shoreline location.
I do not know about their customer service yet, but I am about to find out as we dicsovered a broken pane in one window when we removed the packaging this afternoon. Since Fibertec has been a class act so far, I assume they will correct the damage - - I'll let you know in a follow-up post.
Eastsound
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rashley Registered Users
Posts:3

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| 07/30/2008 10:13 PM |
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We just had Fibertec windows installed in our home in Quebec. We had 12 windows installed and one sliding patio door. 11 of the windows were casement style and the other was a horizontal sliding window. The 4 SSE facing windows had a high SHGC 0.48, while the others had the soft coat low E coating for low SHGC 0.29. Even though we are in a heating climate, the WSW side dining room window gets full sun in summer and with the old uncoated windows, got quite hot. The rest of the house is in shade even in the winter months. All windows except the patio door are triple paned, argon filled with warm edge spacers. The patio door is double paned, argon with a warm edge spacer. All windows and patio door are fiberglass frames with oak clad interior and aluminum clad exterior. The windows look great.
The price I paid was substantially less than 4 different local quotes for wood framed windows and NONE of the local sales people knew what the SHGC for the windows was or why I would care. The time between finalizing my order and receiving the windows was 10 weeks and the sales guy at Fibertec hooked me up with an installer who brought the windows with his installation team from Toronto.
I can't report on energy efficiency yet but closing all the windows almost completely shut out my neighbor's lawn mower yesterday. I never thought I'd say this but I'm actually looking forward to getting that January heating bill :-)
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