Has anyone had experience with the vertical ICF panels.  These are called TF system and claim less bracing, faster assembly, and straighter walls.  I'm curious how I'd get the rebar in, among other questions.  Just wondered if you guys have tried this method.

Ben

T-F icf's are a good way to get vertical fast and can turn in and out with out much trouble.
Horizontal re bar can be installed by sliding it in from the inside or outside. Just get your 90 deg bar in the corners as you build.
 You can tie all the  re bar with the inside panels out and save a lot of rework.
Vertical bar is set in from the top in like most other icf's.
As for faster and straighter this really is on the installers experience and quality level.
Jerry at TF has good tec. support , better than most in the icf field.(they have real world time building not just a class how to stack, and sell block)
This is one of the only vertical syt. out on the market that has worked well for a lot of people.
The carpenters that have worked with pan forms learn this syt. quickly.
I found if you strap the outside at, knee and at hip hight with 2x4s and brace inside at 6 feet it holds up well.
Your result's may vary. (Sounds like a commercial but it's just my opinion)
I don't sell this block, but I have worked with it and see it can work well in the right hands.

anyone else have experience with TF system? advantages/disadvantages?

 

All ICF systems are great, it would be great to have one that is as large as a dry wall, would be great !!!!!!!!

The very nice thing about TF panels is you can panellize them--pre-fab your walls in shop, then deliver, erect and pour--VERY nice!  Waste is nil, weather isn't an issue, and jobsite is nice and clean.

Dale,
Curious about how long a wall you have panelized using Tf? Have you tried panelizing a wall with a corner or two?  We tried this for the first time a few months ago.

Our longest panel was 26' placed between 2 corners. It had all the rebar and conduit placed and tied before it was set. The wall had 4 windows bucks installed in the shop. We installed both sides then screwed 2x walers top and bottom on both sides. The corners were test fitted then removed while the panel was set. Came back in with the corners and bent rebar.

In general I must say I am absolutely sold. The wall was solid on the truck and on the crane.  acouple of strong backs on the walers and you could almost pour the wall without bracing. Now when we have a short day I send the crew to the shop to erect walls for the next day.

Verm

What is the efficiency rating on these systems?????

 

I understand mine to be rated at R-24.  Mine will have 2 1/2" of EPS on either side of an 8" pour.

Ben

Dave,

I am also interested in TF. Have you ever personally used the product? A home went up across from my lot using TF (likely 12,000 sq feet) and looks awesome. I can see the advantage of forming a full height with single panel.

Leonard

No I haven't installed the System, but I have seen a few installed, and I will bow out on that conversation. All I'm trying to say is if you think it's the ICF of the future it has been around way to long for that, and it offers no advantage. If so vertical panels would be the focus of all ICF manufactures by now. Enough said.

Dave

Tf's failure to gain market share does not mean there are no benefits to vertical ICFs. Anymore than ICF not gaining a significant market share over cmu or stick in residential construction.

Vertical has its pluses and minuses. We like it because our crews are comfortable with it and panelizing has enabled us to increase production and profits substantially. On the other hand it is more expensive and the corner attachments leave something to be desired.

Every ICF manufacturer makes some claim of less bracing required. Only the installer can make any educated assesment of what bracing is actually required.

These are the reasons I would say a TF should be used but haveing experimented with them on site I have to say that the claims made about time saving s are a bunch of boloney. Our T&M studie resulted in a 23% ineficiency rating over Arxx and 18% over EcoBlock, the main problems being the incertion of re-bar.

The idea in and of itself is a good one, but manufacturers to date have merely emulated tilt up and not thought of the system as an ICF.

I hear on the grapevive that two manufacturers have new designs to be launched early in the new year that will solve the re-bar issue with a pre molded structural steel framework. Until I see with my own eyes whats on the table I'll reserve my judgment and stick to the tried and tested.

All block holds concrete.

Dave F.

Dave,
Could you expand on this? Are you saying that in panelized form the insertion of rebar is less efficient or one sided assembly?

We panelize on a raised platform made from plywood and 2x. Then we layout at full scale and attach bucks via angle braces and form the exterior foam and interior ribs. Then we tie the rebar and run conduit. Finally we placed the interior foam, walers and braces.

How does this compare with your experience?
 
I estimate we see savings of 10-15% over site built. The real benefits are in more efficient crew scheduling and more efficient site time.

verma

No mate, I'm saying that "on site" is less efficient than using standard block and I quoted the two leaders in the biz for both types of block ie self assembly and pre fixed.

What I am saying is that off site I agree with you that there is potencial savings to be made utilising this system as a prefabricated whole structure, the benefits here are in production building, something that we havn't up to date been realy intereted in but there's some guys that want to do this for some seriouse sized sud divisions, so its back on the table for us and that's why I'm interested.

One issue that hassn't been an issue for us to date is building in windy places, up till now I've never taken a contract to build in a windy spot, but this year we accepted a contract to assess and complete remedial repairs on a structure of significant size, one of the issues we raised was the fact that every day at about noon winds reached an average of 36 knotts which in my oppinion made it imposible to stand the structure as designed, and was a significant factor in the deviation of the structure. Just for example deviation occured as much as 5.5 inches in 4 feet, with the contractor claiming the "the wind blew the wall over" after he poured, LOL.

A system that we could drop in place and pour in a few hours has its place, both in production build and where keeping your forms streight and true would be difficult due to local conditions.

Now having said all that if the guys who are now going through testing get their product to market I know that we won't be thinking about production build we will be knee deep in it because that system would be as cost effective as stick. We'll still be high end custom builders using normal block because that's where our heart is, but the cash cow of system build for the normal punter will help stabilise our cash flow and propogate the industry as a whole, one hand washing the other twenty five so to speak.

All block holds concrete.

Dave F.

DaveF

We stack and pour in 36 knot winds routinely. No gluing as we go. No tying of block. Just great block, with great connectivity, and normal bracing measures.

You quoted "two leaders in the biz for both types of block"
YEAH RIGHT! (ok, Maybe in the 90's.)
Which would make your good car probably an Edsel.

Because all cars are equal, eh?
Kevin

Back to the originall posting,

Verma,
I am interested in your experience would the vertical system perform a large percentage better only below/on grade due to the exterior bracing shoring needed or is it quite efficient multistory as well?

kevin

We're looking at on grade, below grade we use cheaper block systems because we don't need to keep the outside of the wall looking nice and it works out cheaper to shim out the interior walls to keep the inside looking OK. Plus braceing virticals is also a little more difficult that the 'rough brace' we use on a basement.

Virticals are a good solution for infill walls on larger structures also because these walls don't form part of the integral structure itself and rasping is needed whatever wall system you might be thinking of using.

The one thing I would caution against though is that virticals are far more prone to stress movement under hydrodinamic preasure so we would never use them on a high end build because the tolerances we work too could not be met.

All block holds concrete.

Cheers, DaveF.

Actually we use mostly interior bracing except at the corners. Most corner bracing we can do in the shop and set the corne as a unit, then fine tune the bracing.

We typically use speedfloor or hambro type self supporting poured decks above grade. I would say that the basement story (usually 11') and the second story (9') get more of an efficiency boost than the first floor (10 or 11'). Some of the inefficency related to moving the block into the hole or supporting 2nd story stacking are eliminated. Overall I would say the savings is 10-15% blended between the three floors.

That takes into are higher labor costs  (NYC area), the higher cost of Vertical forms, the crane truck,  the extra shop space and the complexity of the houses we build 11k+ sqft with lots of radius walls and corners. If we were in a lower labor cost area the efficency would be quite a bit higher. If we were building smaller less complicated buildings the efficiency gain would probably be about 30% all in.

Next project we are going to try pouring the walls and floor at the same time. Small scale at first, just to try. I am really unsure if this will increase or decrease efficency. I can see both sides of the argument.

Question for you vermaraj; I've used Insuldeck to date but am concidering using the Speedfloor system along with a few of their other products, what's your opinion of the two systems.

Seconly just as a curiosity, I was wondering what the labour costs are in your neck of the woods, I see people here saying they stand wall at two bucks a foot and look at my workmans comp bill running at $1.78 a foot with a spotless track record and wonder if these guys are legit. 

DaveF

Having repeatedly completed the only ICF and speedfloor simultanious floor and wall poured project, I would very, very highly reccomend you get someone who has done it on the tifton project.  I dont know what you are being told by others, but your job can go south.....Extreamly rapidly.  I would also call Graeme of speedfloor who reviewed the project during construction and observed the challenges.  People can get hurt....or worse.  I garantee you whoever you are talking to has never done it, and is leaning on our projects success for the sale, however was not involved in the construction, engineering, design and implementation of the project.