I noticed today that one of the walls in the basement he poured is out of plumb. I found a vertical lean of 1/2" - 5/8" in one of the walls. The wall is leaning outwards vertically. the height of that wall is 12 feet so far and it will have a second level (additonal 10 feet) built on top that. I'm worried about him going higher and compounding the error resulting in a structurally unsafe wall. Can you tell me if a wall leaning like that is structurally safe. The forms he uses are from Nudura and the concrete core is 6".

Any help will be appreciated.

By all means this wall is currently safe, but your concerns for it getting worse above is a valid concern. Is the sub floor installed yet? and if not is it back filled. There's no reason for it being out of plumb, but I would have suspected you would have said not straight. A little puzzling that you wouldn't have seen that first considering if the corners are plumb, and the walls out 5/8 the wall would have a 5/8 bow in it. It's possible due to its height the contractor bowed it out slightly to accommodate back-fill pressure, if the framers wanted to 1/2 back-fill before framing. We need more info to answer this one.

Dave

This house is not going to be framed. It will be ICF construction all the way up to the roof. My concern is that when he is vertically out on that wall then the next level which is stacked on top of this will lean even more.

The floor system is not installed yet and the wall is not backfilled

I wouldn't intentionally leave a 12 foot wall 5/8" out of plumb at the top while I was pouring it but, on the other hand, I really wouldn't be too concerned about it if I found out the next day that it didn't get caught. It doesn't sound like it would cause any structural issues but I suppose you could run it by an engineer if you are concerned.

A local technical sales guy for Nudura went to the site today and told me he didn't see the alignment as an issue at all. Should I take his word for it?

Yes, but tell the guy doing your walls (in a nice, polite, friendly and asssertive way) that you will not be satisfied if the next levels are not plumb. Let him know that you understand that Stuff happens sometimes and ask him how plumb he expects the rest of his work to be.

If the foundation is not back-filled yet how long is the wall that is 5/8th out of plumb. Secondly, where on the last block is the floor system going? The reason I ask is, if the sheathing will end up at the top of the last block you could restraighten the next pour bottom block and get started with a straight wall. This will be dependant on where the floor falls on the last block poured.
This could be fixed either way, but is easier under the scenario above.

As far as the next level being straight, it sounds like your installer is a little in-experienced. Had they bowed the walls in slightly 1/4" per 20' we wouldn't be talking about it on this forum. Did you witness the walls before the pour? and was the wall strung prior to pouring.

Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the reply. The wall was strung before pouring. My hunch is that the crew left too soon and the wall drifted away from plumb several hours after the pour.  The floor system will be at the bottom of the last block so I think part of the leaning wall will be a part of the main floor.

Strip the bottom 6" of foam at the location of the "drift". I think you will be suprised at what you find. Particularily in the direction of the lean.

I assume that you mean that "graveling" occurred at the very most bottom of the pour and the wall is now only supported by the aggregate and not concrete.  I raised this concern in my most recent post.  So what is the way that this can be avoided - and reliably and consistently be avoided?

Leonard

 

That's the most insane thing I've heard, to think "Graveling caused this problem". The problem was caused by not bowing the walls in, and the lack of quality conscience as to re-straightening the walls that went out during the pour. It's common knowledge in the ICF industry that if you over- tighten your bracing/alignment screws the walls go out about 1/4" in 20' ft and are 3 times harder to pull in than push out. Even with Nudura there is still ICF compression that causes this phenomenon when over tightened. If there is "graveling"( which we never see with a proper mix) it would never cause such an issue.

Dave

All right ART guys, I believe its time to give some photo documentation and proof of your past gravelling issues and remediations, so they may be reviewed and fully understood.  Also your perfected solution, fully detailed for the rest of us to learn and apply.  We all know you guys have built with ICF in multiple situations/manufacturers, and that you try to be proactive forward thinkers. 

But I believe fear is a poor motivator to procure work, and it is horrible to instill unproven fears into consumers already "sticking their neck out"  If I was a new reader, your gravelling posts would possibly scare me into discounting ICF as a viable option.

So help out the industry, and knock the "we're so great so buy our speedfloor " crap off

Kevin 

grzlek

Although not desirable, I do not believe your walls to be structurally unacceptable.
I have remediated a multistory concrete post tension structure  where the posts were out of plumb over an inch in ten feet, engineers signed off on it as acceptable.
I have remediated ICF walls (middle school) that were out of plumb two inches in 14 ft height, the engineers signed off on it as well.

I believe many of the poured walls in new homes would show this result also, although again not desirable... 

Kevin

Kevin,

I could not have stated this better myself.  This is the main issue of what I see is the main concern for ICF construction.  The forms are essentially the same in the end result.   It is the pour and the "getting there" that causes anxiety - you can't simply take concrete back.  I think more education on this forum on this particular issue would be useful.

Leonard

   Thank you for your input and I,m sorry that you feel this way.
 You ask for doc. about graveling. OK I have that give me your e-mail I will send you some pic. 
 Will you do someting for me first.
  Cut out a 2" x 6" peice of foam out at the cold joint of your next pour  maybe a few of them you can just glue it back and it will not hurt any thing on the build.
 Before you glue it in take a pic. and send it to me.
 Seeing it on your own job will hopefully change your attitude.
 I know the art boys and have spent 4 years with them.
Working on a few jobs with them showed me that I had a lot to learn.
 I thought I had this stuff down after 20 years as a union carpenter (We pour concreat every day) 40 hr. of ICFA train the trainer. and a handful of icf jobs under my belt.
You could not tell me That I didn't have this down.
Well I was wrong, I have found that I need an open mind!
 If you what to learn ask we will let you know what to look for Better yet show up on my job. I will show you what I do .
You can't get this from a book. 
If you do not do a post pour inspection you think all is good and keep doing what you always have.
 Look at your self consolidating concrete that you have not internally vibrated and poured at a 7" slum.
 I know what it looks like !
 DO YOU!
Tom you said it,
  This is not a scare tactic its reality open the foam look for your self.
Otherwise you don't Know what you don't know.
Good concrete is what I sell that is what the build is All about. And yes it is cheaper to do it straight that what I get payed for. I don't hide behind an engineer saying it OK with his stamp when it out of plum. The work speaks for it self.
 Last thing Speed floor, try it you will like it. I don't get a dime off the sale of this I just know what works and am willing to share it.
Isn't that what this forum is all about?
 I hope this helps clear thing up.
Scott Woulf
Woulf cc
One of the old art boys!

Unfortunately your walls are out of plumb but they should be safe, work with your contractor to make the best effort to keep your next pour straight and plumb. As for the professionals on this site can we stick to the point of helping people to build better with ICF's and not bashing each other or the products. it was a simple question are my walls safe? Our industry needs to continue to improve our products and services, but this site has become a place for people to look for help and advice they should be able to get it with out all the other bickering

Scott,

Thanks for the reply and I apologize that this thread has been hijacked for the sake of "graveling." But this is what was brought up by Mark (of course I assume since he never really mentioned it specifically - just to remove the bottom foam) to explain the wall lean. What I am seeing is that there is no definite consistency on the concrete mix design. Internal consolidation technique is for the most part (well it should be for the most part) universal. The MIX design, however, is not. Even though we all seem to like 6" concrete forms for above grade and 8-12" for the basement I cannot find concensus for the "perfect mix." There was a competition that apparently was submitted by various admixture manufacturers several years ago for the "perfect mix" but I am unable to find the results. I am not sure if the forms were stripped after the pour to document workability, flowability, lack of honeycombing, or graveling. But if this issue is somehow standardized it may create less anxiety.

With regards to Speefloor, even though I have never seen or used it, it looks to be a very nice system.  I may look into it for our next project.  Just need to plan those floor penetrations well.

Grzelack, have you stripped the lowest portion of the first course?  I think we will all be curious what you find (the foam of course can be glued back).

Leonard

First lets understand one thing clearly. ART does not exist, what is relavant here is that the key players, that is the ones who take the time to learn from each other and check their own work, are still together. Many have thought of myself as a "quack" in the industry, only because ICF's are very difficult to get right, and there are so many things that can go wrong, compared to standard wood or aluminium forms. I have no need to advertise speed floor or myself or any of the "internals", we have more work on our plates than we can ever hope to complete, with a 5 story holiday inn, 47 homes, 8 5 story condo buildings and a 4 story retirement community. With hambro, Litedeck, steel pan and wood framing being the floors of choice we are installing currently, I beg to differ on our push for speedfloor. There is only one speedfloor job that we have and is not coming for a few weeks, we are not the north american distributors for it. All this in addition to the thousands of buildings we are responsible for overseas right now. Do you really think I am trying to advertise?

Enough said about that, lets move onto credentials and achievements. With many a forensic court case won, (including trial expierience) , a BS in project engineering (university of Pittsburg equvilancy), a BSC in construction technology (Northern college of applied arts and technology, a BS in Civil Engineering Building technoloby (MIT Equivilancy PHD graduate proffesor), and a BS (granted by the department of Immigration and Naturalization services evaluation officer) in Building Science along with being designated Chapter 17 Special Inspector by City building departments, and with hundreds of completed Investigations, research reports, manuals and other key ICF and ICF related products or projects, I feel I may have a bit to offer here.

However lets look at the "real world expierience" Lets see, over a dozen low rise commercial structures, roughly 50 commercial buildings, and hundreds, if not thousands of homes completed. These include hotels, government facilites, schools, historical society restorations, military ICF work, and international developments on a scale of hundreds of thousands of homes and commercial complexes going in or completed.

The interesting thing is that I can back all of this up with appropriate outside documentation, My CV, as few have seen, is about 400 pages long, you want to see it, I can sum it up with just a few signed documents, and samples from it in about 75 pages. If need be I will post it all, for all to see, however I would like to see some of the qualified individuals on this site that prefer to discredit what the "internals" have to offer, to post there own first so I do not waste my time. Somehow, I have the feeling that no one will take the challenge, however I will not post first, I am too busy to do so. Pick on my grammer, I can do the same back at you, I dont have time, nor patience to be politically correct on this forum. I post what is relavant to inform and advise, not to be attacked, I appreciate the same consideration in return.

NOW ON TO THE ISSUE OF POOR QUALITY WALLS AND WHY WE DONT SHARE THE TECHNIQUE OR INFORMATION

It is a learned thing that all of us do, we look at our quality of work on every job, and make gains to do better. We communicate effectively and transfer tricks of the trade to each other, whenever we work together. To explain how things are done would take a book, you want to learn, get on one of our sites and stay there for a couple of years. This is the "apprentiship" that an Internal goes through. What we teach cannot be found in a classroom, but is gained from the expierience of others. How do I explaine the "feel" of a void in a wall with a vibrator. Think of this....With a wet mix, you cannot effectively "feel" the void as you can with a stiffer mix. Concrete flowability is not a measurement of "slump", however the way it behaves in a moving environment. How do I explain the "look" of the flow in the drum of a concrete truck, as it slowly turns. How do I explain the "carpenter eye" that is needed to see if a wall is straight and in plane, this is all expierience and site teaching. However this is all a very small part of the overall picture of building a successfull business with ICF formwork. We teach sales, estimating, project management, site investigation, soils and capacities, human resource management, the politics of building, purchasing and business skills, needed for a successfull company to grow and be proficient. Many an ICF contractor have I seen that has come from a blockworker or concrete finisher, with exceptional trade skills, however not enough business and operational skills to succeed. This is what we teach, and what we know, how can we ever hope to transfer this information in a single post? or even in years of posting?

From that the choice is yours, I am sure I have "ticked" a few of the people I expect to "tick off", however unless I see a post that make sence to investigate or inform, and is not argumentative, then I typically do not get involved. This is the first in a very long time.

Make your own call, I am not looking for more work, we are way to busy. I do not need to justify myself any longer. for those who wish to argue or belabour the point, please justify yourself as well, however be prepared to back it up to your clients who read this, as I am hoping this post will stop the bickering and/or slamming of quality individuals that post. This is a site for information, not slanderous remarks.

Please note, I did not mention a single poster or product in this email that I am trying to discredit.....

Why I posted the question about stripping the bottom of the form is multi fold, first to discover graveling, the second is to see if a lean set occured from a long pour, which resulted in the lowest portion being out of level and curing as such, then aligning the walls that simply sag back into place as well as to view the concrete for excessive fly ash which may have resulted in delayed set.....Among a few of the things that can happen.

And no, I am not drunk......YET.


Mark Ross