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Quantum
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Posts:262
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| 01/16/2008 7:44 PM |
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This of course, is the most complex question you could have asked. Because it's not just a matter of thermal resistance of the foam from inside the house/slab to concrete core, but also calculation of Amplitude Suppression and Phase Displacement. (please read my link above) In order to get these accurate you must have monthly temperature averages for the different depths of soil where your house is to be. Then see the formula at the bottom of that page.
Of course to avoid this, everyone in construction takes shortcuts, with rules of thumb. I can see how you could infer that because Highload has high enough compressive strength it's OK under footer, but I was a multifamily developer through the '90's and say please give me university studies or manufacturer engineering proving this is OK. I've given above what can happen if you are wrong.
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woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 01/17/2008 11:12 AM |
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Quantum,
You are on the mark!
NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!!
Their is a product out that is OK for this and will work for you.(LINK)
Thursday, January 17, 2008/10:12:13 AM |
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Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
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teslastones
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 01/17/2008 11:50 AM |
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As someone who has built concrete structures in Alaska--and several other states and countries-- I would suggest you call Mike at Polar Supply in Anchorage. Buy some 60 psi foam from Premere there in town (the best quality foam I have encountered anywhere.
Use some type of piers (helical, driven,augered, etc) The varigrated soils in Achorage area, the ice lens chances, the muskeg pockets etc, dictate that the thinking person choose an enhanced foundation system from what would what might be pertinent in the lessor fourtyeight (ie, the Ted Stevens airport foundation debacle)
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teslastones
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 01/17/2008 11:52 AM |
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I forgot to suggest you also isulate horizontally the equivalent of your frost line (4' in this case")
This created a thermal bulb and is accepted practice for frost protected footings. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/17/2008 1:02 PM |
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I have an idea which may help, although I haven't looked into the technicals. 'Lightweight aggregate' is an engineered product that is a special clay or silica that's baked so it puffs up like popcorn. Pretty good as an insulator for basement backfill. Maybe if compacted, the inspector would accept it as casting surface under the footers. But I would thoroughly research and see if any credible studies have been done.
As a point of interest, we have an old beer cooling warehouse (Rainier) here in Seattle, which was converted to a frozen products warehouse. It had massive cooling coils and no insulation in the slab, which over time caused the ground to freeze. An ice ball developed, and ultimately raised the whole building up 12 feet! Of course causing much structural damage but it was kept in service for many years nonetheless.
They've just torn it down and put it out of its misery, thankfully. |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 01/17/2008 1:33 PM |
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Posted By Yellowstone on 01/16/2008 5:31 PM
In Germany, there is the "Passivhous" standard...
Regarding utilites and insulation - I'm living in Germany, not in a Passivhaus, but in a 400 year old stone building. The exterior walls have no insulation but they're three feet thick - solid stone. The radiators don't seem to need to run that much in winter and we stay warm anyway. I've got a south wall full of windows which is great, but this is day number 16 of grey skies and no sun.
Still I pay about 1200 euro per year for gas and electric. Right now that equals about 1800 dollars, but that's because the dollar is so weak. In the year 2000 that same euro amount was equal to probably 700 to 900 dollars.
I see a lot of 4" external EPS foam with stucco being applied as retrofit jobs on post-war construction. For new construction I still see a lot of EPS foam with stucco, applied over cast concrete, or over big clay bricks with a hollow waffle pattern inside. There is also a lot of autoclaved aerated concrete being used.
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/17/2008 6:21 PM |
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Jelly, Sie sind ein glücklicher Mann...
I lived in Germany for three years in a village called Börfink when I was with intel, located in Rhineland-Palatinate near Idar-Oberstein. I loved it, and was surprised to find that even in the '70's when I was there, the standard of living was higher than in the States.
Two years ago I tried to emigrate to Sweden, but found that they had raised the barrier so high for Americans now that it is all but impossible. You must either pre-arrange a job where the employer will certify that no EU citizen can do it; or marry a national. Well, the first is impossible, and I am too old and ugly for the second. They have a lineage provision, but it was my great-grandparents who were Swedish, so too far removed.
Used to be in Germany they'd build a house (hadite block) and complete all except the final stucco exterior, to avoid the higher taxes that come with a new building, for something like five years! Lots of unfinished-looking houses happily lived in, and built by schwarzearbeiter. Houses were an astounding US$110k back then, whereas in the States $30k for the same.
We lived in a beautiful house, but were renting so I glued up a foam material to the inside walls, which was specially made to accept wallpaper, then papered over that. Didn't save a whole lot on oil, but Hell I was 24 years old, what did I know?
I guess you're in Schengen, but what part of DE are you in? How could you emigrate, if I may ask? Can you still pay a traffic ticket on the spot and have no record? |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 01/18/2008 1:14 AM |
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Quantum, the unfinished houses are still here. I always just thought it was because they were taking their time! Now I know the real reason. :) I watch a lot of construction. They do a fantastic job. But just a modest home built on what used to be farmland on the edges of town will cost half a million dollars.
We're in Bavaria. We're just like guests here - my wife has an American employer, I'm an artist - so neither one of us is "taking a job" from a local citizen. It's been great, but soon we're going home to Louisiana.
Traffic tickets come in the mail, after you get snapped by a sneaky little camera on the side of the road. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/18/2008 10:14 AM |
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Yeah, I remember the radar traps. A VW microbus with the whole front-end opening as a door and an antenna the size of a kitchen sink. They'd sit on the other side of bridge abutments and catch you going away! You never knew. Then down the road a motorcycle Politzei waves you over. Sounds like nowadays they've reduced it to a fixed camera and mail.
But used to be at checkpoints (for Red Brigades, etc) if your tires are worn or you were speeding, you could pay cash on the spot and it never goes on your record. Just like in east Texas, and probably Louisiana, except not due to corruption!
So you're not in the East. It was pretty run-down before Reunification. Wondering how it is now that there's been such an infusion of cash.
I was recently looking at satellite photos of Börfink, and by gosh there's a set of hedgerows shaped like a swastika! I never saw this on the ground. I still loved it there though. There's a town we used to drive through called Abentheuer. (EveningHour) What a beautiful name for a town. In the evenings my wife and I would play backgammon and listen to the crazy wide variety of radio there. Radio Albania broadcast in English for an hour a day; I remember one program they had was called, "The Application of the Principles of Marxism to Physical Education". (WTF!) Wild. |
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TerryJ
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/18/2008 11:26 AM |
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So no one yet has commented on the cons of Legalett's use of of foam under their footings with ICF walls.
Here's a link to a drawing from their site:
LINK |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 01/18/2008 12:43 PM |
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| Quantum, can you PM me so as not to hijack the poor fellow's thread any further? But that hedgerow thing needs to be reported. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/18/2008 12:43 PM |
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What? Back to the thread topic? Horrors...
I can't draw any conclusions about Legalett without extensive study, but there are several things I notice offhand:
- They are all about heating. This is their business and focus, and foundations seem to be almost secondary;
- They describe it as a 'Standard 8"' slab. 'Standard'? A large amount of costly concrete, not to mention a monsterous amount of thermal mass to warm up with hydronic;
- This is in their FAQ: "We provide a complete design for building permitting. Our designs fall under Part 4 of the NBC and is stamped by a P. Eng. with a BCIN. All bearing walls are accounted for during design for our slab on grade system." So they use the CaNBC, not IRC. This would be a problem outside the Great White North.
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/18/2008 12:45 PM |
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Jelly that's OK, just digressing. Anyway, the PM system here doesn't work for me since I run Linux and Opera. Winduhs is just an unsecure, lame OS.
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TerryJ
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/18/2008 5:28 PM |
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Quantum and all:
1. with regards to Building Codes etc on their site Legalett says:
We have supplied our standard slab on grade warm floor system to many states including
California, Nevada, Utah, Michigan, and New York. Our standard slab on grade design
requires an engineer’s stamp in Canada as well as the USA. We have available an alternate
design that is IRC compliant (International Residential Code) which has been adopted by
many states and would not require an engineers stamp. However, most customer prefer
our standard design because of its' simplicity.
Legalett is very well suited to ICF Construction for 2 or 3 storey homes. We have many
back walk-outs on sloped property - Legalett can be designed to suit the location.
LINK
2. And re cost of concrete/and their system, Legalett has a cost comparison chart showing that up to 3000 sq ft, their system is less costly than several other designs. Of course I know they can design the study to make them look good, but maybe they do have a point?
Foundation/Heating System Installed Cost Comparison: LINK
The reason I am pursuing this thread, is that I am in the process of designing my own house to be built on a site (Central Canada) that has a high water table, heavily treed (firewood) and is remote from the electrical grid. It will be a modest 2 story (2000 sq ft), ICF, well-insulated, solar passive, off-grid house. Solar panels, possibly a wind generator and diesel generator for electricity; solar evacuated tubes, a wood/oil boiler, and a ~600 L water storage tank will supply DHW and heat for ground slab and concrete 1st story floor (Hambro). I now produce my own biodiesel which will power my generator, boiler (when I am away or too lazy to cut firewood) and my diesel car, truck and tractor. As you can see I like to be independent. However propane will power my fridge, stove and dryer, so I do need the rest of the world to stay intact for a few more years! ;-)
To make a long story short, I am looking for solutions to the high water table problem (all wells in the area are artesian!) and the cold winter environment in my area of Canada. Comments? |
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TerryJ
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/18/2008 5:39 PM |
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Correction to size of hot water storage tank: not 600 L, rather 600 Gal. The heat energy is stored in the 600-gallon hot water storage tank so that the gasification boiler need not cycle on and off minimizing in-efficient combustion. I will be installing an in-line electric water heating element in the storage tank that will run off of the excess electricity generated with PV solar and wind and also activate during backup diesel generation.
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/18/2008 6:20 PM |
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Doesn't sound like you're too far north (like Arctic north) as you don't mention permafrost. Thing about a high water table is that you can't fight it, you have to redirect it. It would be best if you knew how the property behaves during the Spring thaw, so you know where flooding is. Build uphill from there.
I'd have to study the Legalett system extensively, and I just don't have time. So for now I wouldn't use it.
600gal is about right for your uses. Use a buriable polyethylene tank or a dairy-surplus stainless-steel one, and foam it with 12"-18" of soy-based foam. Then put in four coils and bury it under the basement slab. it matters what size the coils are and where located. Hint: remember the thermal stratification in water. Give priority to hydronic, and regulate temperature to it with a nonelectric, adjustable anti-scald ('tempering') valve. For boost on both water systems use a modulating tankless water heater. For hydronic, use PEX-AL-PEX for best efficiency.
I'd use a gravity drain-back system, for fail-safe freeze protection and no need for glycol. Be very careful about the brand of evac tube you buy; the Red Chinese ones are crap. They haven't yet mastered (or care about) the glass-metal interface, which has always been a problem due to the differing coefficients of expansion of metal and glass; you lose that vital vacuum. The only two brands I really trust are AMK (Swiss) and Apricus (Aussie). Thermomax (UK) might be OK even though they use metal-glass, since they've been manufacturing for decades. No less than 30 tubes, hopefully 60.
I'd use Honeywell fitments, Grundfuss pumps, and for gosh sakes use a DanFoss 8000, which automatically finds your balance point.
Do you have electricity up in Canada? If so, for PV, if you have alot of roof area you might save with thin-film like UniSolar. There is a new silicon-free thin-film invented in South Africa (CIGSSe) which should take over due to low cost when it's fully developed in ~5 years, but not yet. If it were me I'd use Sanyo for now, which is a combo of monocrystalline and triple-junction amorphous. It's the second most efficient on the market, at 16.2W/sqft. (SunPower is 16.42, but is impossible to get) I'd use Outback power conversion and GS Yuasa LiIon electric car batteries.
Find a wind resource map, and if you have enough wind get a Bergey 10KW.
Good on you, running on propane. It's a waste byproduct, and all that's not sold is burned off in those flares you see over refineries. I converted my Jeep to propane two years ago, which runs 60% cleaner and costs me $1.82/gallon. (compared with gasoline at $3.05, LOL) I feel sorry for you who have to burn that oily, smelly sh*t that puts out alot of smoke.
On biodiesel production, are you using the FATTA method, or the Appleseed?
One other suggestion: Being remote like that, I think you need a personal helicopter. Here's the one I'm looking at. Here's another good one. Get around no matter how much snow; do search and rescue for neighbors; get groceries on a whim; and fly down to Ontario for a Saturday. And since it's a turbine engine, run it on kerosine, biodiesel100, JetA, gasoline, methanol, or even vodka!
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TerryJ
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/18/2008 6:56 PM |
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Thanks for info. I am on many other forums re solar etc and your comments and recommendations are bang on!
Water handling: Even in the heat of July/Aug last year, when most areas where in drought conditions, I could dig a 1 ft hole with a shovel and have it fill with water. In our area, most properties bring in a Hi-ho to dig graded surface ditches leading to a municiple wash ( a big ditch that leads to to a river downstream). Even so many people with basements have water problems during thaws. My view is why go there (i.e. basement) - just build higher!
Biodiesel: I am using a variation of the Appleseed method. In another lifetime I was a chemist so the technical part of biodiesel is old hat. However due to time constraints I copied Bill Kemp's system http://www.aztext.com/biodiesel-book.cfm/
I'm not sure my better half would let me get a helicopter....I am still trying to talk to her about composting toilets, greywater systems, digging a well myself |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/18/2008 7:10 PM |
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Hey man, rainwater catchment. I don't have time to go into detail on that, so I'll copy from my website.
"Rainwater catchment is an idea that people have been trying to do on their own, but in order for it to work well a designed system is generally required. Rain is collected as runoff from a roof which is of impervious material like metal, plastic, or cement-fiber shingle. It should not be an asphalt-based roof or one which can harbor algae and other organisms. This runoff is directed into an underground holding tank for storage, which can be anywhere from 200 to 1,000 gallons, depending on how much it rains and how adverse you are to using City water. Much more storage though, and you risk the water going skunky.
Municipal ordinances prohibit using untreated runoff water for human consumption, which includes use for showers and laundry, but it can be used for landscape irrigation and commode flush -- amongst the highest volume uses of water in a household. So a turbine (well) pump is immersed in the storage tank, and dedicated piping is run to each commode, hose bib, and sprinkler supply; the pump senses a drop in water pressure (demand) and automatically turns on, providing pressure. An expansion tank in the circuit provides buffering. Experience with rainwater catchment in the Australian Outback and Texas shows that the tank water can sit indefinitely without water treatment, as long as the incoming water is clean, it gets no Sun, and annual checks are made."
By the way, some of the things I've mentioned above, I'd rather not have spread around. Makes things harder to find. |
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TerryJ
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/18/2008 8:08 PM |
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I understand rainwater catchment etc, but rainwater/water storage/water availability is not the source of the problem. The area has a number of gov't protected swampy areas; the land is clay based with no natural drainage. It's great for the farmers and people who like green lawns and gardens (no watering during summer) but hell on basments.
As I said before the wells are Artesian so we barely have to pump the water. If we take the cap off my neighbour's well the water shoots up 1 ft. All the wells have 2 in lines to drain off the excess pressure.
Anyways I have hijacked Yellowstone's thread enough! I am going to contact Legalett on Monday re the science behind their system, ask for studies etc and get back to the thread and get back on topic.
Enjoy the weekend! |
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eric monkman
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Posts:195
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