|
|
You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
 Prev Next
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
grzelakc
Registered Users
Posts:16
 |
| 01/18/2008 7:52 PM |
|
If you're looking for energy savings, ICF is NOT the way to go. I just finished a 1400 sqft house in Eastern Canada and the energy performance is mediocre. The house was built very carefully (Nudura blocks), spray foam was filled around windows, doors, there is styrofoam under the slab and styrofam in the ceiling. The ceiling has additional R50 worth of spray cellulose on top of the styrofoam. All windows and doors are low-e and Argon filled.
The house uses electric heat - there is no natural gas in the area and geothermal is expensive around here. It went through 2600KWh for just heating the upstairs. The house has throwback thermostats to save energy and unused rooms are kept very cool. The reason I know this figure is poor is that I used the same amount of electricity for heating my previous house which had a similar square footage with the difference was that that house was build with 2/4 studs, no wall insulation and drafty doors.
So what savings have I achieved by going with ICF? None that's what. Sad but true. ICF is nothing more than a gimmick. All the talk about "effective R50" is industry proponents' mythology. It isn't true and it doesn't work. You're better off saving your hard earned cash and building with 2 by 6 and insulating carefully. Same effect but much less expense. For the money I spent by going with ICF I could've afforded myself a ground source heat pump which would have given me real energy savings rather than hype and mythology.
I'm really bitter for getting suckered into the ICF hype.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
|
| 01/18/2008 9:28 PM |
|
It's not hype...I'm sorry you feel this way about a product that all of us on here believe in and know works.
You are probably going to get bombarded with a whole bunch of questions/comments about certain methods, did you do this, did you do that...without being there none of us can check.
As a suggestion, have you had your ICF distributor look at this issue? That would be the first stop, secondly an independent heat loss calculation/inspection? thirdly, I would 'borrow' an infared (sp?) camera (utility compnies generally loan them out, free of charge) Shoot the house with it one night and look for leaks.
I am not familair with electric heat, do you have an HRV installed? This is a important piece of equipment in an ICF house since it is so air tight, it is harder to heat stale air as opposed to fresh air.
I built several homes in central Ontario, my friends in particular was the same size as my older stick frame house, his gas bill was less than 1/2 of mine!!! His A/C ran between 1 and 2 times a day, mine...every 20 minutes. His house was better then stick frame.
So, I think something is amiss with you new home, something needs to be tweaked and I believe you will realize the savings soon enough.
|
|
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
|
|
grzelakc
Registered Users
Posts:16
|
| 01/18/2008 9:40 PM |
|
Chris,
I do have an air exchanger with heat recovery. I also have three vents (one in the kitchen and one in each bathroom) which vent to the outside. I sealed all remaining air leaks that I could find with spray foam but there were few of them left. I think the technology is over advertised here. The ICF wall really is just an R20 wall and that's that. The stuff about the thermal mass making such a difference just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Also notice that most people provide lots of anecdotal evidence but hardly any numbers to back it up. I can actually provide the numbers because it's easy to compare houses using electric heat. I simply look at the kWh consumed and know instantly which house uses more energy
Additional Information:
The house is a bungalow with a full walkout basement. So there are effectively two levels. The main level which has 9' ceilings and the basement with 8' ceilings. The basement is not finished so we are not heating it. The only radiators we use are in the living area on the main level and in one of the bedrooms. I keep an eye on when the thermostat comes on and have found out that it comes on just as often as in my stick house when heating a comparably sized area.
As I said previously the walls are Nudura with no extra insulation beyond the standard 5" of styrofoam. There is a 2 inch sheet of styrofoam in the ceiling of the main level and on top of that there are 13" of blown cellulose insulation. There is a 1.5" styrofoam sheet under the basement concrete slab. The floor between the two levels is not insulated.
I have no clue why the thermal performance is so poor. I've been hunting for air leaks or insulation gaps but can't find any. Maybe my expectations are too high...
One more thing. I noticed that if I turn the heat off completely on a fairly cold winter night (-10 Celcius) the house temperature drops at a rate of around 1 celsius degree per hour. After six hours overnight it drops from 22 celsius to around 16 celsius.
|
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 01/18/2008 10:32 PM |
|
Posted By grzelakc on 01/18/2008 9:40 PM
I think the technology is over advertised here. The ICF wall really is just an R20 wall and that's that. The stuff about the thermal mass making such a difference just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Also notice that most people provide lots of anecdotal evidence but hardly any numbers to back it up.
Well, it's a bit more than just an R-20 wall, because of it's ability to inhibit Air Infiltration(but you can't assign any additional R-Value due to reduced Air Infiltration). I do know that the R-50 hype is basically BS. There is no accepted way of assigning an R-Value to thermal mass.
What they probably didn't tell you, is that in situations where the outside temperature never reaches above the desired indoor temperature, all that you really have is the static R-Value. That's most of the Northern US in the winter.
ORNL studies back this up, and ICF's perform best in warm climates. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
Eric Moldenhauer
Registered Users
Posts:20
|
| 01/18/2008 11:06 PM |
|
| jc...correct me if i'm wrong, but, what I think you're trying to tell grzelakc is that the advertised benefits of ICF is a crock!!! Why would anyone want to be sucked into a joke? And why would anyone want to be a part of doing-the-screwing? I never will be a part of either side! There are two basic choices when building a home----- (1): build above ground with what ever jerks your trigger when you want something asthetically pleasing; (2) earth shelter (live in a 3-sided cave) if you want to save the cumulative cost on heating/cooling/maintenance. ICF/SIP is a bunch of hype to me...some-one started a (expensive) fad, kind of like clothing/fashion. Don't worry, I'm sure it will wear-off before too much longer. Unfortunately, the pushers of this garbage will need to find a job (or live in a cave). Can't deny proven methods...can we? Sorry, but I don't buy what does not work, and what I've read on these products/methods fits into the no-worky category. |
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 01/19/2008 12:00 AM |
|
Posted By Eric Moldenhauer on 01/18/2008 11:06 PM
jc...correct me if i'm wrong, but, what I think you're trying to tell grzelakc is that the advertised benefits of ICF is a crock!!!
R-50, no way. The real problem is that the benefits of an ICF wall are location dependent.
Why would anyone want to be sucked into a joke? And why would anyone want to be a part of doing-the-screwing? I never will be a part of either side!
Unfortunately, if you live in America, you being fed a stream of misinformation. And, I'm not just talking about building technology.
ICF/SIP is a bunch of hype to me...some-one started a (expensive) fad, kind of like clothing/fashion. Don't worry, I'm sure it will wear-off before too much longer. Unfortunately, the pushers of this garbage will need to find a job (or live in a cave).
I will disagree here. Both technologies(ICF & SIP) are superior to stick built. I just don't agree with some of the claims(R-50).
Can't deny proven methods...can we? Sorry, but I don't buy what does not work, and what I've read on these products/methods fits into the no-worky category.
Well, yes. For superior thermal performance you need to pretty much use foam. Whether that is SIPS, ICF's, Spray Foam or a wall assembly that incorporates foam boards(did I leave anything out?).
Standard construction techniques will not provide the energy savings or comfort that you get by dumping the studs. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 01/19/2008 8:52 AM |
|
Grzelakc,
Is this your first year in the ICF home? If it is, I wonder if the second year energy usage would be lower after the concrete cures more so.
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
|
| 01/19/2008 9:01 AM |
|
We had a coule people unhappy initially, turns out they had cheap pot lights (veritable chimneys) all over the house.
Kevin |
|
|
|
|
Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
|
| 01/19/2008 9:41 AM |
|
grzelakc, first of all, PanelCrafters is just here to criticize ICF and show why SIP is 'better'. I have shown him at least twice where the university studies are, but the fact is he has made an [i]emotional[/i] decision, and there is no sense reasoning with someone who has made an emotional decision. I could say alot more, but I think it is dirty to sabotage competitors. Those who do are always exposed and pay the price.
Second, please do not blame ICF until you actually identify where the losses are. You will be surprised. As suggested, please borrow or rent a FLIR camera, and also have a blower door test run! I would suggest a certified EnergyStar inspector, but you may not have them up there. You have leaks, and need to identify where they are if you want this fixed.
|
|
|
|
|
Lockard
Registered Users
Posts:39
|
| 01/19/2008 11:08 AM |
|
grzelakc
I have never been a fan of ICF for anything other than maybe foundations. But it seems to me that you must have infiltration problems. As much as I don't like ICF's, they should out perform 2X6 framing by a long shot.
In my humble opinion, you could have any kind of insulation in the walls and roofs 2' thick and it's all for naught if air moves in and out.
I am a fan of SIP's. We have used them since 1981 (approx. 160 houses) with great success. SIP's are superior to ICF's, especially Polyurethane SIP's.
Quantum
Not challenging you, but I would like to see the university studies you mentioned. Maybe it's just my morbid curiosity!
|
|
Lockard |
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 01/19/2008 12:07 PM |
|
Posted By Quantum on 01/19/2008 9:41 AM
grzelakc, first of all, PanelCrafters is just here to criticize ICF and show why SIP is 'better'.
That's not true(my sig proves that). I just have a problem with all of the hubris applied to ICF's. R-50?
I have shown him at least twice where the university studies are, but the fact is he has made an [i]emotional[/i] decision, and there is no sense reasoning with someone who has made an emotional decision.
No emotion involved, I too base my opinions on studies. ORNL only gives ICF's a slight nod over 2x4 framed construction. And, the colder the climate, the less the advantage.
If you really want mass to be a benefit, it shouldn't be insulated from the interior of the structure.
Each system has it's place(along with spray foam), it all depends on the situation & location. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
drogers
Registered Users
Posts:68
|
| 01/19/2008 12:23 PM |
|
What is the construction of this walk out basement?
With the basement unheated and the basement ceiling uninsulated, could you have a major heat loss there? What is your basement temperature? Was the previous home built with the same basement features?
Is your heat exchanger running to long? Do you even need it? What is your indoor humidity level?
Side walls in northern climates are not the major source of heat loss, you seem to have done a very good job on the quality of insulation, something is missing. |
|
|
|
|
SoonerStacker
Registered Users
Posts:7
|
| 01/19/2008 8:22 PM |
|
WOW...saying icf is not worth it is like firing the head coach of the national championship team because he lost one game the next season.
2 inches of Styrofoam???? what was your method? lay 4 x 8 sheets on top of the joists or cut 14 1/2 strips and lay between? and what kind of "Styrofoam"? Also why stop at 13 inches of cellulose you could have went to 6 feet and still would not be up to my standards. Any home that doesn't have spray foam in the attic might as well leave the doors and windows off. Lets see the SIP guys dispute the quality of spray foam!!
Lets talk about the doors and windows....if they are not a u factor of .35 or lower they are not good enough.
And what about those can lights.....did you know that 20 uninsulated can lights is the equivalent of having a 3'0" x 6'8" door open the attic at all times. Theres study to back that up!! I wonder if that old uninsulated 2 x 4 house had 20 can lights in it? Doubt it
If ICF is not worth it how can I heat and cool my 4000 sq ft house which is ICF and Geo for under 80 dollars a month average??
2 x 6 construction give me a break!!
SIPs are a great way to build...just not the BEST. But hey I admit I have an agenda. Give the best to everybody who wants it! |
|
|
|
|
ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
|
| 01/19/2008 8:33 PM |
|
This is a ICF I have owned for a few years now and this a typical heating bill that we see.
The only insulation in this house is ICF , nothing but ICF anywhere. It is a total of 2,600 square feet on 2 levels.
The duel heat line is a separate meter , consuming 280 KWH , Thermostat setting 24-7 is 68 degrees----- $15.00 in November.
See the actual bill. |
|
Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
|
|
eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
|
| 01/19/2008 10:43 PM |
|
grzelakc :
I am in Merrickville On. Are you close by ?
I would be glad to have a look see, with you.
Primarily I would focus on heat loss thru the ceiling.
Wiring penetrations thru the top plates, gaps around plumbing vents, pot lights, (your attic vent can be a chimney )..that kind of stuff.
For example, if the wiring was not caulked and sealed, moist air may have entered the cellulose, eliminating any R value it has.
When cellulose gets wet, it's done, finished, never to return. LOL
There is lots of moisture available during drywall taping.. has something occured during that phase ?
Also, rafter baffles, preventing drafting between your foamboard and the cellulose must be installed.
Cold air passing between the 2 materials above your ceiling can also void the R 50 cellulose.
I've always laughed at the R50 claim too, and the thermal mass theory, but ...I've never had a customer
not totally endorse the system.
So your bad experience gets me head scratching.
|
|
|
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
|
| 01/20/2008 12:00 AM |
|
Just received the Reward newsletter today,
Exerpt:
Recent study from Reward, commisioned by CTL Group (engineers and technology consultants) to answer the question, "what r-value should a house built with wood frame walls have in order to obtain the same space heating and cooling energy consumption as a similar house built with Reward ICF walls"
R-value, static R-value, dynamic R-value are all discussed
You can get a copy of the full, technical report from CTL Group, ask for it at reward@rewardwalls.com
Come to think of it, we also had a consumer quite unhappy with performance, he had received a huge new high efficiency furnace from a buddy meant for a large home, they installed it themselves to "save money" When he became aware of disappointing heating bills, he sat in his basement and timed the furnace cycles. In cold weather, the furnace would start every 20 minutes, and run for six or seven minutes.
The engineers at some HVAC manufacturers have responded to our question, "how long does it take to reach 90% efficiency on a 90% efficient gas furnace" by giving us answers from 9-15 minutes.
So the furnace never reached its true potential efficiency, the engineers estimated that the furnace might be running at 40% efficiency during the first several minutes, much like a vehicle when its warming up.... The unhappy consumer would've conceivably lowered his heating bills by opening a couple windows and letting the furnace run longer cycles!
Stay warm,
Kevin |
|
|
|
|
SLC
Registered Users
Posts:7
|
| 01/20/2008 1:04 PM |
|
This has me thinking now....so what is the best way to install pot lights? or is there a way that will not drastically reduce the sealed envelope and not just meet code. I'm in the planning stage, so now is the time to revise if necessary.
OT
Eric I just picked up on the fact that your are in Merrickville when I build in approx. a years time it will be just South of Ottawa. So what manufacturer do you work with?
sly |
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 01/20/2008 3:10 PM |
|
Posted By SLC on 01/20/2008 1:04 PM
This has me thinking now....so what is the best way to install pot lights? or is there a way that will not drastically reduce the sealed envelope and not just meet code. I'm in the planning stage, so now is the time to revise if necessary.
Look for an IC(Insulation Contact) rated sealed(air tight) fixture. No air leaks, and you can cover it with insulation. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
|
| 01/20/2008 5:09 PM |
|
SLC : there are condoms available to fit over pot lights than can provide sealing surfaces for acoustic caulk and poly vb.
they make small ones for receptacles also. Elec dept at HD has 'em.
Nudura is our primary supplier, but we've cert'd several others that are very good products.
With the current line up of 3rd generation blocks, the end results aren't much different one to the other.
I am really not discriminatory... except I'm not fond of product that wastes time on site, by requiring assembly....... LOL
|
|
|
|
|
grzelakc
Registered Users
Posts:16
|
| 01/20/2008 5:10 PM |
|
I have no air leaks through light fixtures. I checked that. Also I have no potlights in the house. Just regular fixtures.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
Professionals Serving
Your Location:
GBT Project Albums:
|