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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/20/2008 5:13 PM |
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Grzelakc : Can you confirm the status of the following elements ?
So, what is the current condition of the cellulose ? Wet and frozen or Dry and Fluffy ?
Do you have baffles between the rafters above the top plate ?
Do you have High heel trusses to accomodate high insulations levels at the eves?
Is your gasketing on the Attic Hatch ?
Do you have any HRV penetrations ,plumbing vents etc thru the ceiling ?
What is the condition of all your other wall penetrations?
Do you have dampers or back flow louvres on any of them ?
In your basement, do you have a water condition ? , by way of a running sump pump?
Is it sealed and vented to the exterior ?
Is there a minimum of 2inches of Aim foam or SM undreneath your basement floor?
About the basement.....we have seen many people with high water table lots ,
experience cold basement floors.
This is mainly due to the chilling effect of the water that is moving beneath to the sump pump.
The best installation is 2 inches of Aim Foam or SM underneath the slab.
THe payback in comfort and energy effiency is almost immediate.
How 'bout a reply?
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 01/20/2008 5:22 PM |
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Posted By SLC on 01/20/2008 1:04 PM
This has me thinking now....so what is the best way to install pot lights? or is there a way that will not drastically reduce the sealed envelope and not just meet code. I'm in the planning stage, so now is the time to revise if necessary.
Or do like I'm doing with the house I'm building. For not a whole lot more $$ insulate on the underside of the roof and seal and condition the attic. Then you can have all the holes you want in the ceiling with no penalty at all. Also makes it easier to use the attic space for storage without tromping down ceiling insulation.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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Lockard
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 01/20/2008 6:49 PM |
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Posted By Eric Moldenhauer on 01/18/2008 11:06 PM
ICF/SIP is a bunch of hype to me...some-one started a (expensive) fad, kind of like clothing/fashion. Don't worry, I'm sure it will wear-off before too much longer. Unfortunately, the pushers of this garbage will need
to find a job (or live in a cave).
Wow Eric.
The same thought passed through my brain.......27 years ago. This
garbage pusher has made a decent living pushing SIP garbage and I don't
even have to live in a cave! Woo Hoo!!!!!
Posted By Eric Moldenhauer on 01/18/2008 11:06 PM
Can't deny proven methods...can we?
Sorry, but I don't buy what does not work, and what I've read on these
products/methods fits into the no-worky category.
Proven methods? Let's see.......stakes driven in the ground and wrapped in animal skins was a proven method, it was around for a few thousand years. Timbers with wattle and daub was used for centuries, then we moved on.
My point? Technology is always going to provide us with good new ideas and methods and the old archaic ones will fall by the wayside. Like it or not, stick framing is on the way out. Modular/panel construction is going to push it out of the way. There will always be pockets of resistance to change but, as far as I'm concerned, SIPs have been proven time after time.
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Lockard |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 01/21/2008 11:15 AM |
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Grezlakc: Not doubting your honor but a 2x4 house with no insulation and drafty doors is a poor comparison of reality. I live in a 50 plus year old 2x4 stick 1700 sq ft 2 story with winter high bills of 250.00. I have customers in ICF homes 3 times the size of mine that pay the same.
Is it possible that this new home has inferior electric heaters that draws to many watts? I've only seen a few efficient electric heat systems and I believe they where 220 volts, are these 110?
To all those above that have posted as to SIPS being equal or better, sorry but you are still selling cardboard construction. You have addressed there performance, but you have not addressed the cellulose construction. Any water or moisture migration that gets beyond the exterior finish surface will trap water and cause rot and mold issues.
Be prepared for the road to come, the NAHB is well aware of these issues being caused by cement board sidings and porous exterior finishes which have no known affect on ICF's. The good new is when the codes change and require exterior drainage plains on wood sheathed homes it will be another boon to the ICF industry.
Dave |
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grzelakc
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/21/2008 11:45 AM |
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The electric heaters I'm using are identical in both houses. Both are 220V based. Besides, all electric heaters have efficiency of just under 100%.
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WolfCandy3x
Registered Users
Posts:56
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| 01/21/2008 12:19 PM |
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Hi all,
Bi-genration Icf house ( Blue Maxx ), Low-e windows, Stone front, Novabrik siding sides and Back,
4770 sqf including Garage ( 240 sqf )... 12-14 inch cellulose Insulation in roof no insulation under basement slab
just a 80mil Plastic for humidity
2 x 40G HWT and every appliances in double ( SF/WD ). all Baseboard heather with regular Thermostat ..
didn't have time to change them yet... And set at 20 degrees
5 Computer running 24/7, 4 tv's running -+ 6 hours a day. 3 adults 2 kids ( Hot water Usage / laundry )
the garage is heated at 15 degree all winter because of Motorcycles and 1 Vehicule plugged in all winter ( Block heater )
Air conditioning ( 10 000 btu ) in summer only . Pool filter. Exterior lighting from dusk till 12 am ...
all Light in the house are 75watt halogen ( 22 can lights ....) or 100watt bulbs
2808$ total electric Bill @ 7.9 c a KW .. All this in Quebec,canada.. and today is -18 with WS factor -32
I love my ICF house....
Francis |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/21/2008 12:40 PM |
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Posted By eric monkman on 01/20/2008 5:13 PM
Grzelakc : Can you confirm the status of the following elements ?
So, what is the current condition of the cellulose ? Wet and frozen or Dry and Fluffy ?
Do you have baffles between the rafters above the top plate ?
Do you have High heel trusses to accomodate high insulations levels at the eves?
Is your gasketing on the Attic Hatch ?
Do you have any HRV penetrations ,plumbing vents etc thru the ceiling ?
What is the condition of all your other wall penetrations?
Do you have dampers or back flow louvres on any of them ?
In your basement, do you have a water condition ? , by way of a running sump pump?
Is it sealed and vented to the exterior ?
Is there a minimum of 2inches of Aim foam or SM undreneath your basement floor?
About the basement.....we have seen many people with high water table lots ,
experience cold basement floors.
This is mainly due to the chilling effect of the water that is moving beneath to the sump pump.
The best installation is 2 inches of Aim Foam or SM underneath the slab.
THe payback in comfort and energy effiency is almost immediate.
How 'bout a reply?
Thought I'd bump this ahead :-)
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grzelakc
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/21/2008 1:18 PM |
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> So, what is the current condition of the cellulose ? Wet and frozen or Dry and Fluffy ?
It is fine. I checked
>Do you have baffles between the rafters above the top plate ?
Yes
>Do you have High heel trusses to accomodate high insulations levels at the eves?
Not sure what it is but the insulation level is fine near the eves...
Is your gasketing on the Attic Hatch ?
Yes it's fine. Beside the attic hatch is in the garage which is not heated.
>Do you have any HRV penetrations ,plumbing vents etc thru the ceiling ?
Not sure. I don't think so, although there may be a sewage vent.
What is the condition of all your other wall penetrations?
Fine as far as I could check. I caulked and sprayed foam in any place I could think of.
Do you have dampers or back flow louvres on any of them ?
Yes.
In your basement, do you have a water condition ? , by way of a running sump pump?
No. No sump pump.
Is there a minimum of 2inches of Aim foam or SM undreneath your basement floor?
There is 1.5" of foam. I thought that was going to be enough.
>About the basement...we have seen many people with high water table lots, experience cold basement floors.
The water table is fine. the basement has a walkout on one side, thus the water table is at least several more feet below the basement slab. The perimiter is backfilled with gravel almost to the grade so I'm sure the drainage works very well.
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/21/2008 2:07 PM |
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Grzelakc : Who is the certified installer and where is the house ?
And who supplied the Nudura ?
Did your heating contractor provide a "heat loss analysis" ?
If your garage is unheated, what is the common wall built of ? Nudura or Wood Frame?
By rafter baffles I am not referign to the "egg carton" style, but a vertical wind baffle flush with the outside wall 12 or more inches high.
I am asking for names because it is relevent to the success of your project and I feel these individuals should assist with tech support. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/21/2008 2:29 PM |
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Well said Eric.
grzelakc, please also see my post, this thread 01/19/2008 9:41 AM, and others'.
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/21/2008 7:55 PM |
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Posted By eric monkman on 01/21/2008 2:07 PM
Grzelakc : Who is the certified installer and where is the house ?
And who supplied the Nudura ?
Did your heating contractor provide a "heat loss analysis" ?
If your garage is unheated, what is the common wall built of ? Nudura or Wood Frame?
By rafter baffles I am not referign to the "egg carton" style, but a vertical wind baffle flush with the outside wall 12 or more inches high.
I am asking for names because it is relevent to the success of your project and I feel these individuals should assist with tech support.
Bump.
Grzelakc :Q is spot on with your needing a" blower door test" and " thermal imaging."
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ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Posts:81
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| 01/21/2008 9:34 PM |
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"ICF Not Worth It" What not worth the extreme strength, lack of sound transmission, they will not support mold growth or their extreme energy efficiency? All for 3-4% more. It is any easy choice for the informed homeowner. The biggest problem I witness is getting the consumers familiar with ICFs.
As for energy efficiency; two houses that I did the ICFs for in 2006 the building had a blower door test and infrared camera. The independent testing agency told him no house tests as well as ICFs. The builder was there at the testing and said he will do a better attic insulation next time. The owners/neighbor tell me their heating bills are amazingly low. |
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DallasBill
Registered Users
Posts:119
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| 01/22/2008 5:38 PM |
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I'm just a homeowner but three areas are SHOUTING out at me as the core reasons for heat loss:
The (walkout) basement is not finished, so they are not heating it, and the floor between the basement and the heated envelope above is not insulated. Major issue number one. He's re-heating his floor all the time -- conductive heat loss to the cold below! And, since it's a walkout, there's a "big hole in the wall" where a "thermal mass unit" would normally be, thus worsening the situation.
There is a 2 inch sheet of styrofoam in the ceiling of the main level and on top of that there are 13" of blown cellulose insulation. I am sure that it is not one solid sheet of styro from stem to stern, and it is certainly not caulked all around the perimeter to the attic wall. So, there's heat loss from the ceiling through to the attic that way, at every styro joint, into the 13in of cellulose. And that 13 in of cellulose is woefully inadequate for an Ontario winter.
Lastly, the attic entrance door may be in the garage, but it still connects to the entire attic space above the heated envelope. Thus, the attic is exposed to the unheated garage. That attic door needs to be insulated to R30 (or whatever) also -- with an attic door tent or something similar. It's another hole into the attic, and with the compromised styro/celulose, it's a recipe for 2600kwt of electricity use!
I'm betting on it. ;-) |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 01/22/2008 6:07 PM |
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I was going to say something along the lines of basement ceiling, basement walls, and upper floor ceiling, but I am trying to give grzelakc credit that he did it right. He put alot of work into that house, and is understandably discouraged.
I fully agree that it's likely the ceiling EPS is not sealed and that the basement is a drain; attic ceiling is the second-most common area for leaks, after windows/doors/flues. But if grzelakc is truly sincere about wanting to find the problems, rather than just being discouraged, he will rent a FLIR and commission a blower-door test to physically see the actual problems for himself. Because the problem can't be ICF per se. If he doesn't take these steps, there is nothing we can do to help him; if he does, he will find the problems. |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 01/22/2008 7:19 PM |
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Well I would have to agree with that statement! One of our first notable ICF homes had the blower door test and all the infra red heat loss done reaped the same results as many above. The company that tested said it had the least air infiltration per sq ft on there records, and also asked our customer if they could use there home in a sales video.
This same customer was one of our first that went with the full blown heat loss calcs. from ENERGY WISE STRUCTURES back in 01' I believe. The local heating contractor argued that this home would take 250k BTU's even though it was calling out 100k. Even the gas company caught the small furnace and questioned it per sq ft. This customer is the one I stated above who pays the same to heat his home which is 3 times the size of mine. His cooling is less than one quarter of his neighbors for the same size homes.
Dave |
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DallasBill
Registered Users
Posts:119
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| 01/22/2008 9:42 PM |
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Precisely, Walltech! The OP has no idea what his heat loss is. We used Energywise for our plans in 2005. Best $350 we ever spent. I spent quite a bit of time talking with Richard Rue to understand why we needed what he recommended.
That's why I'm betting on all the "holes" in the OP's house are his issue. He has ICF walls, with "big leaky holes" on top and underneath. He might as well be standing on the shores of Lake Ontario in January, with an Arctic parka on, but no toque, no gloves and bare feet -- same thing. That's an analogy, of course, but he needs to come to grips with that and fix it. |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/23/2008 12:22 AM |
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LOL DB !
Grzelakc is in Southern New Brunswick somewhere, and not responding. Wish he would though, as there is lots of help available.
Seriously , the industry has to do more to educate the innocent on the whole of ICF technology. ( or stop them from building )
Stacking and pouring are just the first part of the equation.
Design analysis, zero infiltration, and mechanical execution are just as important , but not spoken too enough.
And it is the "non-pro's" that get caught by simply not being around the game long enough to understand the detailing necessary for success.
R 2000 has done a lot of educating here in Canada..taught me how little I know.
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DallasBill
Registered Users
Posts:119
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| 01/23/2008 10:20 AM |
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I notice he started this topic on the 18th. Since the 15th, southern NB has been slammed with almost 40 cm of snow as well as 30+ mm of rain. He's likely still busy chipping his way thru the snow and ice dam in front of his walk-out basement... ;-) |
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WolfCandy3x
Registered Users
Posts:56
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| 01/23/2008 2:14 PM |
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Posted By eric monkman on 01/23/2008 12:22 AM
LOL DB !
Grzelakc is in Southern New Brunswick somewhere, and not responding. Wish he would though, as there is lots of help available.
Seriously , the industry has to do more to educate the innocent on the whole of ICF technology. ( or stop them from building )
Stacking and pouring are just the first part of the equation.
Design analysis, zero infiltration, and mechanical execution are just as important , but not spoken too enough.
And it is the "non-pro's" that get caught by simply not being around the game long enough to understand the detailing necessary for success.
R 2000 has done a lot of educating here in Canada..taught me how little I know.
I wouldn't generalise that all Non-Pro or first timers will overlook all the details Necessaraly. When I built my present house I went around
the differents sites ( not many at that time ) took plenty of pictures, read , reread, reviewed the manuals and went with basic logic. Where I wasn't sure I over compensated ( Cellulose, EF Insulation , double joint in the membranes ) etc etc.
Sure I'm finding out some new thing for my upcoming house, but even thought I new nothing about house building for my first I think I did
a good job using the latest techologies building it... I didn't put any Styro under the basement slab but being 6+ feet under it's not that cold....
I do know that my walkout basement ( next house )calls for a 4-5' frost wall the full lenght of the house and 10' on each side..,
was it done for this house? 'Cause my Next door neigbor didn't plan it and it's costing im a pretty bunble to heat the basement
were is parents live... |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 01/23/2008 2:25 PM |
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Wolfie : You are most correct . That was a poor choice of words / train of thought. My apologies.
Of course there are very successful "non-pros" and unsuccessful "Pro's" too. LOL.
But it is about homework, studying and learning, and application.
ICF's are a system involving not just mud and foam , and not realizing this early on
can lead to a disappointing outcome for some.
I've certainly enjoyed my fair share of mistakes, along the way. Cheers. |
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