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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/23/2008 11:31 AM |
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Hello
We are looking to build a home that has no insulation on the interior walls of the home but extra insulation on the exterior.
We are looking at the possibility of using an ICF system with some adjustments. The system would be the TF vertical forms. We would attach oxide board to the interior instead of foam board and use it as the interior side if the form( it can be done per manufacturers special installation instructions). We would then attach more foam board insulation to the exterior to get a high R-value and an inside mass that is not impeded by insulation.
We would like to hear your thoughts on using this system in this way to build our home.
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 01/23/2008 11:56 AM |
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| I have priced building thermo-mass homes, the costs were higher than ICF. I was building Condo townhomes and the party wall had to be independent from one unit to the next, ICF could not do that, so I looked at the thermo-mass and I was surprised by the costs, I even found a local company that produces the walls as tilt-up panels and they were even higher. I admit the higher pricing may have been due to the fact we were doing minimal work as the exterior were still going to be ICF walls. |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/23/2008 12:10 PM |
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| Not Thermomass, we are considering TF Vertical link |
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trigem1
Registered Users
Posts:50
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| 01/23/2008 1:39 PM |
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Newhome,
I just started carrying the TF System ICF's, so, frankly I have no personal experience with them. But after looking at them and talking to those that have used them, they appear to be a very good way to do ICF's, particularly for a do-it-yourselfer. I really like the idea of being able to lift the inside or outside panels to run electric conduit or flex and retrieve tools if needed. Also, with the verticle design it's easier to not have voids in the concrete. And just bracing in the corners. Simple, logical, and easy to work with. I'm really looking forward to my first one to see if it's as good as it looks to be.
Steve Etten
SteveEtten@grandcountySIPs.com
www.GrandCountySIPs.com |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 01/23/2008 7:43 PM |
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Steve, you might want to research those statements a little better.
(1) You have a 1 in 100 chance of losing a tool in the wall.
(2) Electrical is simply installed 99.9% of the time after the pour in none vertical plank ICF's.
(3) Voids are just as much common in a vertical plank system. Reason why: The tie spacing is to far apart for the typical 6" slump used in most good ICF systems. Verticals are commonly poured with a 5" or less and still can have void issues.
When companies make useless claims like this there generally is a reason " they have no solid example to sell you". I would say verticals are actually less productive with DIY's because there are to many variables. Others have posted here that used verticals with pushed out corners that where braced previous to the pour, which is irrelevant with a good block system. Secondly DIY have no concept of slump so troubles are lurking that don't excist in a good block.
Newhome: Sorry to high jack your topic, you will not hear much if any response to the particular system you have specified. The reason being it is a regional system and predominately sold in Wisc. and many that post here no nothing about it. That tells a whole story in its self? Why does the top ten ICF's have 5-10 manufacturing facilities and they don't?
Bottom line is nobody here wants to bash any ICF but I have personally seen it come and go in Michigan with little success. Sorry but the truth hurts.
Dave
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 01/24/2008 4:03 AM |
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| Newhome, you won't find much love in the forum for any ICF that is out of the ordinary. But you're right, to get the most out of concrete's thermal mass properties you would want no insulation on the inside. If you're interested in researching other methods to achieve that then you might consider cast concrete or fully-grouted CMU, and then foam board insulation on the exterior. |
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trigem1
Registered Users
Posts:50
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| 01/24/2008 10:33 AM |
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Dave,
1. The last ICF job I was on six months ago, one of the guys dropped the tool that twists the wire ties down inside the forms. We had to find a stick and duct tape a wire to the end to fish out the tool.
2. I was just pointing out options. If you do want to do something in the wall, it’s easy to do. It’s always nice to have options.
3. I was just expressing an opinion about voids, not quoting any literature or company advertising.
4. I did an internet search on TF System problems - found none. Did an internet search on TF System opinions – found no bad or negative opinions, only good. I did an internet search on TF System ICF’s, and I was up to the 10th page before I quit. Seems to be a lot of hits on something that’s come and gone.
5. It was listed as one of Rural Builder Top 10 products of 2006. See it at http://www.ruralbuilder.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1416
Newhome, like any product, new or old, do the research, ask questions, find experienced people that don’t have an agenda or a product to sell. There's always something new on the market. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good. Don’t be swayed by the first positive or negative opinion. When there is a preponderance of opinion one way or the other, you can then add it to your “possible” list or trash can it. When you have finished your “possible” list, find the most experienced, reliable, knowledgeable people to do the job. In the end, it’s the people doing the work that will make the difference. I would rather have excellent workman using a second best product than poor workmanship with the best product.
Steve Etten
SteveEtten@GrandCountySIPs.com
www.GrandCountySIPs.com
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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/24/2008 12:06 PM |
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Okay, I will ask some pointed questions.
How would you attach the extra foam to the outside? All walls will be above ground and will be a finished with a combination of stucco and manufactured stone product.
Does anyone know of another ICF product that would achieve the same end result that we want( no interior foam)
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trigem1
Registered Users
Posts:50
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| 01/24/2008 1:06 PM |
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Newhome,
Ahh, the light dawns. I see what your driving at, and I think you have a good idea. I have always thought it’s best to have the thermal mass on the inside and the insulation on the outside. I’m pretty sure I’ll get a lot of flack about this, but here goes. If you were to use the TF System ICF, you could use the leftover foam panels that were supposed to go on the inside and glue them to the outside foam panels. You might put them on horizontally for more strength. You could use plywood or OSB for forms on the inside, making it easier to attach drywall. I think regular construction adhesive would work fine, but there’s probably some special EPS glue that you could use. I’ve glued foam insulation to concrete, and it’s a pretty permanent. I might glue sheets of OSB to the outside foam to attach the wire mesh. You might even run some bolts from the OSB on the outside, particularly at the top, through the concrete to the forms on the inside, with nuts and washers inside the concrete. That would hold everything together.
I don’t know of any other ICF product that would lend itself to what you want to do.
Steve Etten
SteveEtten@GrandCountySIPs.com
www.GrandCountySIPs.com
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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/24/2008 1:14 PM |
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"You could use plywood or OSB for forms on the inside, making it easier to attach drywall"
Actually, we plan to use magnesium oxide board instead of plywood. We will then use it as the interior wall surface.( no need for drywall)
All electric in exterior walls will have conduit and boxes installed before the concrete is poured.
Do you think the extra exterior foam should be just glued? or attached with screws through the metal or maybe with lath and screws? |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
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| 01/24/2008 3:22 PM |
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Newhome,
Do you plan to attach the stone to the TF wall? |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/24/2008 3:32 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 01/24/2008 3:22 PM
Newhome,
Do you plan to attach the stone to the TF wall |
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PatrickT
Registered Users
Posts:138
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| 01/24/2008 8:11 PM |
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Newhome,
When we started desinging our new home, I was pushing for the concrete interior /foam exterior. My push was based on performance. After more research, I soon learned your local condition plays a great part. To maximize your thermal mass, you must drop the insulation inside as you noted in your post. And in the South West, the Adobe construction methods work fine with out any insulation. But as you move your location, the situation changes. New Mexico, 24" earth walls work, Artic conditions will be better with 24" of foam walls. Where are you building? I'm more concerned about thermal application than I am how you make it happen. If your condition calls for Foam/concrete, you could have walls pours the convential method and attach foam to what ever thickness you want.
There are conditions where having internal insulation can be justified. With the majority of your insulation on the exterior, foam added to the ICF as you mentioned, you can have 4.5" exterior and 2.5" interior. Over all a high R-value but with a buffered thermal mass. At the same time straight forward constructiom methods using ICF. This will allow electrical instalation and easy drywall attachment.
Most locations will not have a "one size fits all" design. Pick your highest energy demand time range and design to it. Here in the mid west, we have Cold Winters and Hot Summers. Some days all we want is insulation, other days a bit of exposed concrete to absorb the sun.
Patrick T |
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Opus
Registered Users
Posts:51
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| 01/24/2008 9:50 PM |
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| What is your building location and climate? The effectiveness of thermal mass is entirly dependant on the tempeture swings in your climate. |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 01/24/2008 10:06 PM |
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Trigem: My point exactly, that wire tier you dropped in the wall, was a unecessary tool that is not required in the top ten forms today!
Dave |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 01/24/2008 10:13 PM |
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| Hey, I droped a pencil once, or was it a sharpie? I can't remember now, it's part of the concrete wall...wall hasn't leaked so no ill effects from it. I've looked at the TF system and personally I'll stick with my ICF blocks |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 01/25/2008 5:05 AM |
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Posted By newhome on 01/24/2008 1:14 PM
Do you think the extra exterior foam should be just glued? or attached with screws through the metal or maybe with lath and screws?
I would think you'd need to use screws through to the concrete with the giant plastic washers. But if you're putting stone on the outside you will likely be applying lath, which needs screws too. So the extra foam could be tacked in place with a bit of adhesive, and then put the screws for the lath through the foam and into the concrete?
How does magnesium oxide board compare in price with OSB or plywood?
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newhome
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 01/25/2008 8:53 AM |
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High Desert, Large temp swings year round, Cold Winters, low precip.
Solar to charge the mass through winter months.
We could go with SIP panels but concrete will give us a level of fire protection and sound control we want.
"How does magnesium oxide board compare in price with OSB or plywood?" Very comparable to drywall costs ( if you can buy in bulk) What we like is that we will have a wall surfacethat we can finish without adding the extra step of drywall.
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bill gilman
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 01/31/2008 4:05 PM |
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| Hi, You might check out a book called "The Passive Solar House " written by James Kachadorian. It is a very descriptive account of designing, construction of high thermal mass homes that were documented by doe grant. I adapted these principles to icf and sips use on my retirement home I am building. House thermal storage should be nearly 750,000 btu that can be easily vented off at night if not needed. |
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hector8762
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 02/01/2008 2:04 PM |
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I built with TF and was quite happy with it. I'm an owner-builder, and have little exposure to other ICF systems. But, a friend of mine built his home with a block ICF system. His system took two and a half trucks to ship, mine fit on one. His system seemed to be more difficult to straighten and brace than mine. (likely not an issue for pros. For DIY's, I thought TF was easier.) His system had a couple major blowouts, mine had none.
That's not to say anything negative about block systems in general. It's only to say that my experience with TF was a good one. For two average guys trying a new building product for the first time, I think my experience was a little easier than his.
If you use TF in the way you're considering, you may want to use the next larger size of I-beams and put the extra foam INSIDE the wall. That way, the I-beams hold the wall together and you have easy attachment points for wire mesh, strapping, or whatever. I've tried to attach a drawing of what I'm talking about.
Certainteed makes a product that you place inside standard steel wall forms. You might consider it as well.
http://www.certainteed.com/certainteed/pro/contractor/foundations/prodindex/thermaeze |
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