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JConR
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 02/05/2008 8:24 PM |
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I have read several posts about providing a path for water to exit with drainge at the sill and a sill pan of sorts. This is how I have been doing wood frame installations. I have read elsewhere on the forum that it is acceptable to stucco directly to the exterior foam. It seems that this would dam any water exit. How can these two methods be reconciled?
John
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jbrown84
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 02/06/2008 4:46 PM |
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At the top of the window, I plan on installing a copper Z flashing. Should this get some self-adhesive peel and stick flashing over it as well? I will have already put some P&S flashing over the rough opening, and then over the window flanges (except for the bottom). It seems like I should add this 3rd layer up top. Also, I'm going to use a 3/4" vented plastic furring strip (http://dciproducts.com/html/cedarvent.htm), rather than a 3/4" cedar furring strip, since water and air can flow behind the shingles. Do you know if this would be sufficiently strong enough to attach the shingles to. For 50% of the exterior wall, it's ICF construction, with 2-1/2" of insulation on the outside. There are vertical nailers every 6" horizontally (1" wide nailers), but otherwise I have no way to attach the shingles.
Jeff
I'm planning on usingcould be used as discussed in a good article in Coastal Contractor magazine (http://www.coastalcontractor.net/pdf/2007/0703/0703best.pdf). This 1/2" furring strip, along a shingle thickness of 1-3/16" (18” shingles at a 5” exposure yield a 1-3/16” thickness) necessitates the 1-3/4" plus. And I'll let it run past the Andersen flange.
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/06/2008 7:11 PM |
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Posted By jbrown84 on 02/06/2008 4:46 PM
At the top of the window, I plan on installing a copper Z flashing.
Ouch! Price of copper isn't a concern I take it. It will look good though.
If your Z flashing is wide enough I would say take the top 1" or so of it and bend it back between 45 and 90 degrees and then sink that top edge into a kerf in the foam. Water will then shed from the foam above onto the flashing. In that case no P&S needed. If your P&S extends higher than the top edge of the Z flashing, or you don't have enough metal to sink into a kerf then study what you will have with the P&S you're planning on and visualize the path water will take coming down the wall. Since you know just what configuration you will have I believe you can make a good judgement call as to whether you need more P&S. What you want to avoid is water getting trapped behind the trim and keeping it wet. A little bit of water than can readily flow past shouldn't be a problem.
If I were doing shingles I'd be taking a hard look at CedarVent furring strips myself. Look like a good way to go. But before you spend the money on them think about three things, weather, cost, and your time. If the weather where you are at is fairly dry then the Cedarvents may be overkill. If you have high humidity or a lot of rainfall then they probably make sense. If you opt to use the cedar 1 x 3 strips you could maybe lay a batch of them down on the floor and saw a small kerf with a hand circular saw through a whole bunch of them at a time. The cuts don't need to be pretty and even, and it would be faster than notching with a radial arm saw like the Coastal mag article author mentions. You don't need wide notches, just a lot of saw cuts.
Keep in mind that wood, like cedar, isn't damaged by getting wet. It's damaged by getting soaked and then staying wet. If the water that gets onto the wood, either in front or back, can get dried out in short order you should be OK.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 02/06/2008 9:46 PM |
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Myself, I prefer to use fir tree boards to fir-out, rather than animal fur...
{hehe} |
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/06/2008 11:36 PM |
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Posted By Quantum on 02/06/2008 9:46 PM
Myself, I prefer to use fir tree boards to fir-out, rather than animal fur...
{hehe} You know, I was about to say I really should have checked the dictionary to see which was the wrong spelling. Then........, I decided to check the dictionary --- at Meriam Webster web site. Guess what I found!!!!
- Main Entry:
- fur·ring
 - Pronunciation:
-
\ˈfər-iŋ\
- Function:
- noun
- Date:
- 14th century
1: a fur trimming or lining 2 a: the
application of thin wood, brick, or metal to joists, studs, or walls to
form a level surface (as for attaching wallboard) or an air space b: the material used in this process
My Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, copyright 1966, lists firring as an alternate to furring, but the definition is all under furring.
So it looks like fir trees yield furring strips!! Go figure. That's what's so great about the American language!
When I'm wrong, I admit it!!! When I'm right..................................I admit it!!!!! :-) Have a great day tomorrow!
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 02/07/2008 9:34 AM |
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O-K, another corruption of English makes it into the dictionary. I stand, ehm, (in)corrected.
Er, five-legged cows are still considered mutations, right?
{walks away mumbling, "their, there, they're, there're... to, two, too... Hm, Mark Twain says 'it takes a damned small mind to think of only one way to spell a word'..."}
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/07/2008 10:49 AM |
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Posted By Quantum on 02/07/2008 9:34 AM
{walks away mumbling, "their, there, they're, there're... to, two, too... Hm, Mark Twain says 'it takes a damned small mind to think of only one way to spell a word'..."}
One day years ago my wife talked about planting some flowers in the bed. Our Chinese/Vietnamese teen foster daughter couldn't figure out why my wife wanted to put flowers where we sleep!!!
Another thing I've never figured out. Why is it when a house burns down, the furniture burns up! :-)
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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jbrown84
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 02/14/2008 2:38 PM |
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In a comment last week on this topic, on 02/01/2008 8:18 PM dmaceld recommended in an attached PDF file: "...at the bottom end of the jamb extend the foam the full depth of the jamb, to form a seal with the sill seal", rather than just inside the interior edge of the jamb.
His PDF drawing also says to "limit the depth of the foam to prevent bowing from pressure. Multiple pases may permit filling entire space".
- Does he mean that it's OK to fill full depth, but that you should start at the OUTSIDE, and do it in many passes?
- Secondly, is the exception to this the sill, where the foam should only be used on the inside edge, so that any moisture can drain out?
Thanks for any guidance.
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/14/2008 3:52 PM |
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Posted By jbrown84 on 02/14/2008 2:38 PM
In a comment last week on this topic, on 02/01/2008 8:18 PM dmaceld recommended in an attached PDF file: "...at the bottom end of the jamb extend the foam the full depth of the jamb, to form a seal with the sill seal", rather than just inside the interior edge of the jamb.
His PDF drawing also says to "limit the depth of the foam to prevent bowing from pressure. Multiple pases may permit filling entire space".
- Does he mean that it's OK to fill full depth, but that you should start at the OUTSIDE, and do it in many passes?
- Secondly, is the exception to this the sill, where the foam should only be used on the inside edge, so that any moisture can drain out?
Thanks for any guidance.
That's what I'm planning on doing for my house, just the way I drew it. So far no one has volunteered the opinion I'm off my rocker!! :-)
I don't think it would take "many" passes. Probably two to four for the Andersen window depth I show and yes, starting at the outside and working to the inside. That's because the flange has the outside blocked! The exception is the sill just as you say.
Given the willingness of others on this forum to express differing opinions on any subject related to ICFs, etc., I've taken the lack of responses to be tacit approval of my drawings!!
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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jbrown84
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 02/15/2008 9:19 AM |
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Dmaceld,
One final question. In the 3rd PDF file you posted, you show how you would do the MDF extension jamb for the ICF wall. Should any foam insulation be inserted in that void?
Thanks again.
Jeff |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 02/15/2008 10:01 AM |
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For those who do MDF as shown in 3rd pdf file,.....how do you finish the inside? Typically if mdf is used you would finish with casing on the inside. MDF does not have the nicest edge to leave a reveal on,.......kinda fuzzy if ya know what I mean. Poplar or similar seems to be a better choice even though more $$$.
Bunt
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/15/2008 10:35 AM |
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Posted By Buntly on 02/15/2008 10:01 AM MDF does not have the nicest edge to leave a reveal on,.......kinda fuzzy if ya know what I mean.
I don't like hearing that. The builder who's working with me on this project, and a local cabinet maker, both assured me MDF edges would finish out just fine. Are they mistaken, or might their standards for finish carpentry be a little low?
Maybe I should buy a piece of MDF and find out for myself.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 02/15/2008 10:59 AM |
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There may be different grades of mdf out there, but if you go to home depot or similar and buy a piece, then rip it on table saw and try to sand to a smooth edge, you'll probable end up with a sharp kinda fuzzy edge. If you try and take the sharp edge off by sanding, the edge gets frizzy. MDF takes paint great, but the edges leave something to be desired. This was my experience on a house I did a few years ago for myself. If your cabinet maker assured you, he knows better than I do. They probably have all kinds of fancy tools and equipment to get a nice edge. Definately worth looking into though. I would have them show you a piece with a finished edge. Let me know what you find out.
Bunt |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 02/15/2008 10:59 AM |
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| MDF should finish out very nicely - I personally know lots of furniture makers who use it to very good effect. But your idea to try it out on some scrap is good. |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 02/15/2008 11:01 AM |
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| Bunt is right - it might be a matter of the right tools for MDF |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 02/15/2008 11:40 AM |
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I'm sure tools, along with experience make a huge difference. I do know that with the typical tools such as tablesaw with a fine blade, plane, sandpaper, etc. I could not get the look I wanted. I posted over on jlc, see what the pro's over there say. I could not find anything elsewhere pertaining to this type of situation.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41455
Bunt
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
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| 02/15/2008 7:11 PM |
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This quote from one of the JLC responders says it pretty well.
"
MDF makes great running trim, but terrible jamb stock"
That's pretty consistent with the uses my builder has experience with from what I recall him saying. He did think it would work for the jambs though.
MDF is a lot cheaper, only 1/3 the cost of pine or poplar 1 x 12s. I sure hate to think about taking the really cheap route though, drywall wrap arounds. But at around $4 a lineal foot for 1 x 12s, pine and poplar hurt the budget.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 02/15/2008 10:17 PM |
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We have often used the raw edge of MDF for niches, stair skirts, door jambs and window jambs, custom casings and trim. Just prime the furry edges, then lightly sand. All the fur/fir/ will be gone, ready to paint to a great finish. Occasionally 2 times prime is neccessary, but quick with fast drying latex....
Way better than any finger joint will ever be, and as good/better finish than poplar.
Kevin |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 02/15/2008 10:20 PM |
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Drywall returns are not that bad for the top and sides. They are cheap, easy, and look good. I think drywall on top and sides along with pine or poplar for the sill is a good compromise. The very first house I did I used all drywall returns all the way around. After about a year, the sill started to look "beat up", so I just made a stool out of pine, put some casing underneath and it looked great. The drywall returns probably would've been fine, but the first year in the house there was lots of condensation from all the concrete, and some ended up on the drywall sill. The next year was fine. I probably should've ran the dehumidifier a little more and I woulg've been fine,...........oh well, liv'n learn.
Bunt |
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GRickard
Registered Users
Posts:38
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| 02/16/2008 7:32 AM |
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When I was getting drywall quotes for my house, I told the finishers that I wanted to drywall three sides of the window wells. One finisher suggested that he could even do the trim around the window by simply putting another layer of drywall on. The way he described it, it works just like EIFIS does on the outside. I didn't go with it (mostly because I haven't seen it an couldn't justify the extra cost) but it did sound really interesting.
As for the sills I will go with solid wood to match the cabinets or furniture in the room (oak in the kitchen, walnut in the bath, cherry in the laundry, etc.). The house I'm in now has block walls with deep window sills and I was able to come across some oak stair treads, 5/4 stock with a bullnose already on them, that fit perfect and look great.
Believe it or not, the deep window wells are one feature that got our inerest toward using ICFs. Then with a little research, I couldn't think of a reason not to use them.
Greg |
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