jensen06
Registered Users
Posts:4
 |
| 03/01/2008 10:49 PM |
|
I am building my house LOGIX Basement Main and upper 6" walls. I used an inset buck for my basement openings but am considering V Buck for the rest, any problems or tips on V buck. The inset bucks worked pretty well but with a lot of openings upstairs I am thinking that V buck will probably be a lot quicker.. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:235
|
| 03/02/2008 8:36 AM |
|
We only use v-buck on our projects and will turn down jobs that do not want us to use it.
When using v-buck brace vertically with 2x material on the vertical we use plumbers tape every 16".
We use a jig saw to cut oblong holes in the bottom buck for the pour (as needed) this is so we can pour through it and consolidate at the same time, we bring the mud up to the bottom of the buck and then reinstall the plug we cut out scabbing it in for the rest of the pour.
We install mostly Anderson and Marvin in our area, with the flange and screw that right to the v-buck, use a little caution here not to strip out the screw. When finishing with trim use structural adhesive at the v-buck it self along with a finish nailer, remember that the trim is rarley a load bearing item, so it does not require much holding power. |
|
|
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:250
|
| 03/02/2008 9:20 AM |
|
V-buck is a price upgrade if the client wants to use it.
Our structures are built for generations, but most windows installed are 20 yr. windows. V-buck isn't retrofit friendly.
We feel good old fashioned wood still provides the best cost to benefit ratio for most residential applications.
Some salesmen love V-buck because of the markup; The loss in window/door opening block sale revenue is made up in the sale of V-buck.
Keep your eyes peeled, I've heard some new exciting cost and installation effective bucks are ready to enter the market. |
|
|
|
|
southwind
Registered Users
Posts:7
|
| 03/02/2008 9:34 AM |
|
| V-buck is a great product and we always offered it as a wash between wood because the labor and handeling was far superior to wood. The other plus we found was that with pressure treated wood and the continual warping and splitting caused a lot of call back repairs on drywall returns at windows. V-buck eliminated those drywall problems. |
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:259
|
| 03/02/2008 11:55 AM |
|
I found V-buck to be expensive and requires extra bracing to keep the opening square.
I use 2x6 PT for my footing boards, when done they are removed and scraped off, I have the laborer cut them in half on a 45o angle (2" on bottom, 3" on top) gives me two sides and face with 3/4" PT plywood, ordered ripped to block width from the supplier.
Cost on this is hard to calc since we recycle our footing boards, but dead material cost for the 2 sides and plywood is $ 1.40 per l/f, If I offset the labor costs to cut and assemble (1 man/1 day) against the cost of footing boards I figure I am even.
The back angle cuts when installed with plywood allow concrete to lock it in place, the bottom is left fully open and the plywood is installed after the pour. Most of my windows are set back in to the center of the wall, attaching regular 2x material is easy on a wood buck.
|
|
|
|
|
walltech
Registered Users
Posts:465
|
| 03/02/2008 5:38 PM |
|
I'm with Kevin and Chris on this one. Pt is 1.00 a foot vrse. v-buck at 6.00 with accessories. Can't imagine anyone believing the labor is less with v-buck either, with all the time involved with cross bracing and the lumber needed to do it. We all would surely agree that v-buck looks better but I've yet to see more than a few wood bucks have to be removed do to bowing problems but I've seen 100's with v-buck.
Dave |
|
|
|
|
drogers
Registered Users
Posts:68
|
| 03/02/2008 6:01 PM |
|
Chris, Is this technique done with 8" blocks? I ask this because I assume ( I know where that gets me sometimes) the pieces when assembled with the 3/4" plywood leave a wedge shaped space.
Does it work with 6" blocks when the pieces are cut narrower?
Thanks,
Don |
|
|
|
|
robinnc
Registered Users
Posts:83
|
| 03/02/2008 6:47 PM |
|
Chris, can you post a picture of how you do this. I'm trying to get a visual of how you do this.
|
|
|
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:250
|
| 03/02/2008 8:19 PM |
|
Logix used to have Chris' method as a buck detail on their website. Don't know if its still there.
Chris does this mean you are fastening into the edge grain of plywood?
|
|
|
|
|
woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:176
|
| 03/02/2008 9:18 PM |
|
You got the cut and past thing Chris I think i got what you are saying and that would work nice.
Are you are keying 2x in the cavity screwing it to a 3/4" plywood buck that spans from out side to the inside of the block.
Now you have a nail surface in and out with the 3/4 " ply.
Have any of you cut your block(6"or 8") and used it inside the wall cavity as your bucking leaving 1/2 tie in the buck to cast in?
This will use up your scrap and re use you wood bucking in the next job keeping the wood out.
_______________________________________________
I__________________________________T___________I <------------11" x 3/4" treated plywood buck.
I \ / I I
I \ / I I
I________\ /________I <---------- 2X treated screwed to ply. buck |
|
Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:259
|
| 03/02/2008 10:23 PM |
|
Sorry took the afternoon off for the races
Woulfcc's picture is pretty accurate of what I was talking about
Try it, it works
You can do this with any size block, the 2X never changes, just the rip of the plywood
6" block allows me to get 4 strips out of a 4x8 sheet, 8" and larger reduces and creates some waste, but strips of wood are always useful on ICF for stack joints, etc.
Your not fastening into the end grain, there is a solid piece of 2X right beside it, you can secure the drywall and trim into that
Some companies have a slide in buck or end cap, I tried it for windows and found it harder to secure the window, I will use them for terminating walls however and find the work just fine for that
|
|
|
|
|
Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:93
|
| 03/03/2008 12:15 AM |
|
| The detail I think Chris is referring to is in the Logix Installation Guide, page 2-35. www.logixicf.com |
|
|
|
|
Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:93
|
| 03/03/2008 12:19 AM |
|
| Chris, you said you place windows in the middle of the wall. That's what we want to do. Do you use clips or fins on your windows? Dave |
|
|
|
|
dbollermann
Registered Users
Posts:8
|
| 03/03/2008 12:20 AM |
|
I've developed a way of putting wood bucks in which I think is better than anything I've seen. Using a wood buck, you cut strips of foam to match the inside dimension of the wall (block) cavity. You can use block scraps or just rip strips of EPS or XPS. This foam will end up inside the edge of the ICF blocks at the window (or door) opening and will be installed between the buck and the concrete. This gives you a thermal break as well as a moisture barrier between the wood and the concrete. I have developed some (Patent Pending) brackets which slip through this foam layer, hold it in place for the pour and embed into the concrete wall, tying the buck to the concrete. The bracket is fastened to the buck with self drilling screws. If the attached drawing and pictures come through you can see better how this works. So here's the deal. I am looking for a few people who would like to try some prototypes. Please e-mail me (dbollermann@frontiernet.net) if this interests you.
|
|
|
|
|
dbollermann
Registered Users
Posts:8
|
| 03/03/2008 12:40 AM |
|
| Just to make this more clear, here is a picture of the block being stacked to the buck/ thermal break/ bracket assembly. The foam attached to the buck ends up inside the edge of the wall cavity. |
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:259
|
| 03/03/2008 1:24 AM |
|
Farmboy...attach with the fins, run a seperate 2x around the frame and set the windows at the depth you like, send me an e-mail proicf@sbcglobal.net and I can send you a detail (PDF or DWG) it also shows your detail for the door question you had in another thread and how to deal with it.
dbollerman...do you take credit cards or do you want a check sent? I would like a few to play with and see, couple questions, what's the difference between your clip and just attaching to the web of the block, then on the back side instead of cutting the web flush with the block leave it on to be held by the concrete? Hows the time factor been with the crew in installing? Are you able to drop two #5 through the holes and is engineering satisfied with that as your double #2's around the opening?
Nice block by the way
|
|
|
|
|
dbollermann
Registered Users
Posts:8
|
| 03/03/2008 3:31 AM |
|
Chris,
The difference between using these and just using the web on the block scrap as you describe is strength. These are 16 ga. galvanized steel. I have only supplied these to a few friends so I do not know how fast a professional crew will get them in, but they have gone in very fast.
I think what you are suggesting for the re-bar is that you install them so that the holes line up at the center of the cavity. I recommend that you install the clips to the edges of the cavity. The embeded sections of the clips are angled inward such that if you set the clip to the outside edge of the wall cavity the embeded openings will be sitting about 2" into the cavity. If you alternate them up the sides of the buck and slip your opening reinforcing re-bars through the holes this will give them a nice spacing and hold them in place for the pour. This method will also help to control any warping of the bucks as they dry.
|
|
|
|
|
CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:49
|
| 03/03/2008 9:53 AM |
|
v-buck is only recomended by a greedy sales person who does not care about your project.
v-buck is weak flimsy over priced junk.
we use a metal removable form for all our openings. this systems was designed in house over many years. no wood at all. 1x wood buck when the windows and doors go in and not until its time for them.
dbollermans way looks very interesting aswell.
|
|
|
|
|
Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:235
|
| 03/04/2008 9:22 AM |
|
It is sad when people condemn a product instead of just saying what they like about what they use.
We have been using v-buck for 5 years now and we figured out how to use it the best way.
I will admit that most of the manufacturers do a lousy job of training as well as figuring out the best most inexpensive ways to install.
Good contractors look at what the slow down is and remedy it, then they have a product that works very well for them. They will also get on websites like this one and learn methods from others to help make there job easy, and save them money on labor.
Others will use a product once and fail to look at how they could improve the process and they are doomed to chase dollars with dimes forever.
I for one have learned many new methods from this web site and have tried to keep the focus on what the question was originally, with out cutting down a product that I may have failed to understand or figure out.
I have also noticed that most of the negative post do not give any good reason of what they had diffuculty with only statements that it is junk wouldnt use it and so on.
The folks who come to this web site are looking for advice on how to be successful with what they have choosen to use not to be condemmed for that choice.
So please give them a choice of what you would use and let those who have been successfull with the other items explain how they work.
Damian try advertising some where else. |
|
|
|
|
southwind
Registered Users
Posts:7
|
| 03/04/2008 9:58 AM |
|
Cattail Bill,
Very well stated! |
|
|
|
|