Hello,

I've posted here a few times in the past and have gotten answers to my questions, so first off; thanks folks.

- I've been living in my ICF home for about a year now.  It is a 1200sqf bungalow with finished basement (so 2400 sqf total heated area) with attached double garage (not heated)

The exit from the house to the garage is via the basement.  Steps go up to the garage and they are enclosed by just a regular stick frame/drywall (insulated with that pink fibreglass stuff).  The steps/walls are only about 5 feet long by 4 feet wide  (if that even).  And it is the only area of the home not "ICF".

The rest if made of 6" ICF Nudura blocks, with a regular truss roof, insulated with about 6" of cellulose.  The basement slab is not insulated underneath.

The main floor of the home is bolted into the ICF house frame all around the perimeter of the home, with a big I beam in the middle, supported by those red steel columns.  - The bolts by the way appear to all be rusted (eventhough the home is only 3 years old)

I also have a new 2 ton geothermal "waterfurnace e-series" furnace that is used to heat the house via forced air ducts.  It is I believe an open loop system (I have 2 wells....1 for water to the home and to the furnace, and 1 used to "dump" the water after it passed through the furnace).  The wells are both about 42 meters deep.

I live in eastern Ontario (just south of Ottawa), and the summer temperatures here are in the mid 20s to early 30s (celcius) and in the winter, the temperatures are about -10 to -20 celcius, with the occasional -30.  I also live in a relatively windy area, with winds up to 40km/h, gusting to 50km/h sometimes.


You are probably wondering why I am describing my home so much, well it is in the hopes someone can answer these questions;

So #1.... I used to live in a 2 bedroom stick frame terace home (about 1500sqf), heated with base electric heaters.  I was not on a corner, so I had neighbours on both sides.  My electricity bill in the winter was usually around $150 per month.  I was using roughly 700kwh per month.
Now that I moved into this home, my electricity bill this past winter was around $350 per month.  I was using roughly 2000kwh per month.

I have all the same appliances, and electronic devices, and my usage of them has not really changed.  So I am assuming the increase is the cost of heating the home with the geothermal system.

So my question is, shouldn't my electricity usage be lower?  Not only do I have an ICF home (which claims to lower heating/cooling costs by 40%), I also have a geothermal system (wich also claims to lower heating/cooling costs by 30-40%).  I should be paying LESS than I was paying at my old crappy stick frame terrace home no?
My parents also live in a 50 year old stick frame (but with brick exterior) home.  It is about 3000sqf with finished basement and they heat with oil.  Their oil bill in winter averages about $200 per month.

Does not seem to be as though there was any benefit to me from buying this home.  (I paid about $30k more than comparables because in my head it was worth it to have this type of home at the time).

Could there be something wrong with the furnace or the way the home was built?  - Or is this normal?  In my head, I thought I'd be paying like $50 a month to heat/cool my home with all this efficiency.  (oh yeah, all my windows are also double panned LOW-E Argon windows, and most of them face south or south-west)

Question #2.... Should I have the rusted bolts (holding up my first story floor) checked?  Or is it normal for them to rust on the exterior?

Question #3....Everybody says ICF homes are quiet, but I do not notice any difference in sound.  I can hear a car in the driveway running no problem, I hear wind howling and I clearly hear the rain when it's pouring.  In fact, when the wind is high (about 40-50km/h), it feels like the house is going to break appart.  It does not feel very 'solid'.
I recently had cellular high speed internet installed, and the guy had to drill a small hole (about 3/4" in diameter) through the house to get the cable up to the roof, and when he was drilling, the whole house was shaking violently.  - He was drilling in the basement, and a lamp on the first floor living room fell off the table and broke...that's how badly it was shaking.
So is this normal; were my expectations just too high, or is there something wrong with the way the house was built?  I mean, it was obviously built according to code, because the builder got all the permits etc and inspections passed.  When I purchased the home, I also had my own inspector come in and he told me the house was perfect and in fact was built to higher standards than most houses.  So what gives?  I thought these houses were supposed to holdup in hurricanes?...Feels like mine is ready to crumble in 50km/h winds...

Anyone have any insight on these questions?  I am thinking of just selling it and moving back in a regular house.

Thanks,
Patrick

 

Sorry, no answers, but another question.

What cladding or siding do you have on the exterior?

I am anxious to hear what others have to say about your situation.

ICF Curious

The house has a brick front exterior and the other 3 sides are vinyl siding.

Another thing to note is that the geothermal furnace is running almost constantly.  It runs for 10 minutes, and then shuts off for 5 minutes.  Runs for 10, off for 5 minutes....cycles like that all the time except in the afternoon when the sun is shining through the windows, it does not run. (the temperature in the home in the afternoon actually even rises 1-2 degrees even in the dead of winter).  Late afternoon, it starts the 10 on and 5 off cycle (these are approximate times..not always exact..it is not on a timer lol).  Temperature always remains the same.

Doesn't matter what temperature I set it at, it always cycles about the same amount.  (I've tried many settings from 68F to 75F)

Had the local company that installed it come in and check the system, and they said it was fine and it was normal.  (but I hear from everyone else that it is NOT normal...some people say their furnace runs like twice a day in the dead of winter here).

I also have a 25,000 BTU propane fireplace in the basement (direct vent I think), and when it's on, the furnace still cycles....

Thanks,
Patrick

Check out the post "ICF Not Worth It" on the same page as yours. Read through the 4 pages and see if there is anything that has come up in those posts that could be applicable your home. Might help?!?

first of all 6in of cellulose is not enough. should be close to 15 in. look for air leaks in the ceiling. do you have can lights? they are a big leak if not sealed. where is your attic door? is it sealed? heat pumps are designed to run a lot. are the heat strips set correctly?
surface rust on bolts isnt really a problem.

When I was involved with installing a SIP roof over an ICF wall system I was less than impressed!

Walls were out of plumb with no way to correct them and when we went to attach supporting roof beams the gable end walls were verrrrrrrrry shaky.

One of the problems is you never know if you got a solid pour until its too late

I do not have any can/pot lights. 

There is no attic access from the house.  The "attic" is accessed from the attached garage (the roof is not closed in, it's just open to the garage...(on top of the insulation of course).

15" are you sure?  The home inspector said there was "plenty" when he looked at it, and checked the "attic insulation" box on the homebuyer sheet he gave me with a "Excellent".   I am assuming the insulation was put up according to code at the very least, since it passed inspection.  If the answer is to put more cellulose, I will gladly do so, but people are telling me adding more will bring in only marginal gains at best, and would contribute to too much moisture buildup if there's too much.

I don't know what a "heat strip" is.  - The geothermal furnace is hooked up to regular ducts through the house, and the company that installed it came in and checked the whole system and said everything was fine.

I can only come to one of 3 conclusions or a combination thereof;

1) The geothermal furnace is not running properly even though the contractor came back and checked it (I paid them to do so) and said everything was fine
2) There's a huge design defect in the house, like a big invisible hole somewhere
3) Geothermal and ICF are not THAT much more efficient than regular homes.  Geothermal claims 2x efficiency, and so does ICF.  So in theory my bills should be a quarter of what a regular house would be (of course there's lots of factors but average wise it should be right?) .. But my bills seem to be right about the same as other comparable regular homes with gas/electric heating....maybe even a bit more.

This is not a plug against ICF ... Like I said, I loved the idea and bought into it so much, I paid $30k more for this house only because it was ICF and had a geothermal furnace.

I really hope there's something simple I'm overlooking that I can fix!  My neighbour has a home almost the same dimensions as mine, but it's a 50+ year old stick built home with a wood stove, and he says over this winter so far (it's pretty much over around here) he went through 2 cords of wood.  (So cost him about $200 for the whole winter).  - I paid $350 per month since mid November to heat my house!

 I sat and read all of the Bulls##t from the ICF not worth it deal and bit my tongue but this ICF bashing is starting to piss me off. The guy in the "ICF not worth it" post has a problem and I hope he gets it resolved. Patrick you also have an issue and it sounds to me like its with your geothermal system. It should not run like that no matter  what type of construction. But to come on here and say ICFs are not worth it and try to  convince people to not go with them is like someone having a  problem with their chevy and saying General Motors can't build a decent car. I would challenge anyone to build a stick frame home and compare it to  every house or commercial building I have ever built in efficiency, plumb and square, and level. I can't speak for every ICF builder out there... and I know there are some hacks....but we are confident with our type of construction.

If you had a lamp fall off of the table because a guy was drilling a hole in your basement, I would start to wonder what he was using . Unless he had a post hole auger I can't imagine shaking the whole house. I live in a stick frame house with a concrete block basement ,I'm sorry to say, but I have on occasion bores holes through my foundation and have not so much as jiggled the lampshade. By the way...a full ICF build in in the design stages and will be under construction soon.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for anyone who makes a major  purchase and it does not live up to their expectations.  What I am trying to stress is that you are the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of people living in ICF homes are quietly enjoying them. Its the problem with any type of business...you can have thousands of satisfied customers that never say a word but one bad one will try to  convince everyone that the industry is no good.

If there is a real problem with an ICF install then lets figure out what caused it and try to correct it in the future. But ENOUGH with the "ICFs are not worth it" nonsense. I have a relative who will say "I hate the way fords ride" everytime the subject comes up even though he has not ridden in a ford in years. ICFs, done correctly, are going to be quiet, solid, and efficient.

Virgil Schmidt

yep 15in. you need an r40-50 up there. cellulose has 3.8 r per inch. heat strips are used in the heat pump to provide auxillary heat when the heat pump cant keep up. if they are wired incorrectly so they come on all the time they will waste electricity. its unlikely but something to check.
if all else fails you may have to do a blower door test for leaks. most credible analysis claim that an icf should use 6% less energy than a well built stick house all things considered.

I'm not trying to bash ICF .. In fact, I have a 20 year mortgage on this house... So it is in my interest to fix whatever problems exist.

All I know if MY ICF house as it stands today is not more efficient (or doesn't seem to me to be) than any other stick frame house.

I will get someone to add 9" more of cellulose to my attic and have the geothermal system checked out by someone else other than the installers.  Hope this will resolve the issue.

If the whole house shaked while a 3/4" hole was being drilled from the top of the basement foundation wall, does that mean maybe the concrete pour was not done properly? .... How would I go about checking for that?

The drill he was using by the way was just a regular mastercraft hammer drill.  And I'm not joking, I lost a $50 lamp.. I was a bit peeved!

Could it be that 6"of concrete is too thin too maybe?  What about the fact that there is no insulation under the house's slab?

(I have no architechtural or construction background whatsoever).  I just recently found out the difference between trusses and rafters just to put things into perspective!... So don't laugh too much if these questions seem stupid.


As just an aside, this is the first time I live in a home where about 2 feet around the house has no snow (it all melted)..... So it seems as though lots of heat from the house is heating up the ground near it.  - Maybe this is part of the problem?....Supposedly the Nudura blocks that were used had 2.5" of foam on each side of the concrete......seems to me that should insulate well enough....

Oh ok for the heat strips.  - On my thermostat, it says it when "auxiliary heat" is being used.  If I set my thermostat for more than 2 degrees above the ambient temperature, the "aux heat" kicks in....when the thermostat gets to within 1-2 degrees of the setting, the "aux heat" turns off and then just the regular system runs.  If I don't change the settings on the thermostat, the "aux heat" never comes on.

Sorry, I don't buy it(your BS). There aren't a whole lot of man made structures that are stronger than steel reinforced concrete. Not a lot.

This sounds like another shameless post promoting steel SIPS. Nice Try!

What is your year round ground temperature(below the frost line)?

In Eastern Ontario where I am, I'd estimate it's about 12 degrees C

You may have had 12" of cellulose a year ago. Cellulose has a tendency to settle badly. If you can get someone to blow in white insul-safe
fiberglass. As far north as you are I would have put foam under the outermost parts of your slab. To insulate it from the cold ground.

Patrick, you have come across consistantly in your post as someone who genuinely wants to enjoy the benefits of an ICF home and is trying to figure out what could be causing the problems you've encountered. Therefore, I appreciate your restraint in responding to Miformguy alias Virgil Schmidt. I've read 95% of the threads from 2001 to date and found some disagreements that should have been private emails and not public airings that detracted from ICfs. Well done in trying to stay on course in your quest.
For some others, maybe you should read the posts a bit more carefully before blowing a fuse in a burst of profanity.

Farmboy,
Well said.Thanks for saying what alot of us were thinking.

Patrick,
As far as the structural strength of an ICF walll, I remember from several years back seeing a demonstration where someone fired a 2x4 out of a cannon to simulate debri from a tornado or hurricane. When they shot it at a stick built wall, it went straight through. Then they shot another 2x4 at an ICF wall and it splintered into toothpicks without damaging the wall.

It seems like theat demonstration was on a TV show years ago, But it did have an impact (no pun intended) on my decision to use ICF for the house that I'm building for myself.

Hopefully somebody here knows where to find a link to this video if it's on the web somewhere.

By the way, I'm in Kentucky and I put 14" of cellulose in the ceiling. 6" seems like very little as far north as you are.

Greg

You can find a short video on a link from the web site www.sanctuaryhomedesigns.com I found a longer more in depth video from one of the ICF blocks sites, but I can't remember which one right now, but will keep looking.

There is absolutely an issue some where if you are melting snow out side of the walls, this is going to take some investigation to determine why the heat is getting out side of the walls.

Have some one do a thermal imaging of the home that should at the very least find the leak, then you can determine how to repair the problem, and I am sure if you come back on here with what you have discovered from themal image we can give you a variaty of options to help you out.