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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 04/12/2008 8:39 AM |
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Sorry for the number of questions, but I'm trying to understand how ICFs and cement-insulation-cement (CIC) panels compare. I'm NOT experienced with either type of construction, but I have used tools all my life. What little I know about either is from reading on the web.
Assembling the ICFs and CICs doesn't seem to present any significant problems. But what about costs, risk (functional and financial), durability, finishing, and satisfaction?
Cost:
Has anyone built both fairly recently so that they could comment on the relative costs?
Does the lower cement volume in CICs offset the additional labor?
If a house is built with either ICFs or CICs in an area where the daily temps vary about the desired inside temp, a concrete mass would seem to offer an advantage. But what happens in summer and winter when the average temps don't come close to the desired inside temp -- why won't the concrete get heat or cold soaked and then become a problem rather than an advantage?
Risk:
What types of risks does each present and how do they compare?
What is necessary to mitigate the risk?
How significant a problem do you have if the risk occurs?
Durability:
Does either have any issues relating to long term structural success?
What happens if the ICF foam breaks away years from now -- what happens?
Is there a long enough history with ICFs to know how likely such problems would be?
How do you prevent termites from infesting the exposed foam? (Termites are a significant concern for me.)
Finishing:
ICFs:
Do you need to place your fasteners accurately enough so that they hit
the exposed face of the cross ties.
Does that create a problem installing siding?
Are there enough points to fasten to?
With interior drywall, what must the installer do to hit that spot in the center of a sheet?
How do you hang cabinets?
CICs:
Can you shoot white cement for shotcrete?
Can you finish the interior and exterior surfaces well enough that you'd not need to cover them?
How do you hang drywall on cement?
Satisfaction: From what I understand, both ICFs and CICs would offer better comfort and lower utility bills as compared to a traditional stick built house, but:
How do they compare?
Does either offer non-obvious advantages or disadvantages that buyers have commented on?
Is there a good site or book to which you could refer me?
Thank you for any comments or suggestions that you can offer.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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slenzen
Registered Users
Posts:163
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| 04/12/2008 1:26 PM |
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| I've been intrigued by the CIC shotcrete panels, especially since i want a modern exposed concrete home, but the problem is there are no real local contractors using them. One guy has done a test garage here in MN. It seems they are used mainly in the SW and in Latin America. . However, w/ no local contractor support yet here in MN, it's hard for me to be the guinea pig on my own home. One problem I thought would be obtaining a smooth flat wall but one company has designed new CIC shotcrete panels w/ a wire screed to keep consistent shotcrete depth. I think these will catch on and bring tremendous improvements to homes. CIC panels need to get organized like ICF associations did to spread the word. Other systems that I am impressed with are steel sips and the accelerated building technology panels. |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 04/12/2008 4:19 PM |
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Slenzen,
I'd not heard of the accelerated panels, but I've located and read their basic site pages. It's interesting, but seems to offer only a limited subset of the advantages in a SIP, CIC, or ICF building. It looks easier to use, and should offer good insulating and infiltration properties. BUT, it's not obvious why it would offer any protection from wind blown projectiles; the only protection would be the siding and dry wall -- markedly less than the concrete in CSIPs or the steel or OSB skins in SIPs.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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Orono
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 04/12/2008 6:10 PM |
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| I have been looking at the accbt panels(and similar systems) for my house, which calls for stucco siding. I am really intersted in gigacrete stucco and think that the accbt type of system combined with it will make for a really nice building envelope. It should also eliminate the "flying debris" concern that you have mentioned. |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 04/12/2008 9:56 PM |
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I have priced out the CIC vs ICF on townhome projects, bottom line it costs more. There is a local company to me that manufactures them as a tilt up, they manufacturer at their plant, deliver and erect on site...cost $ 21.00 per sq.ft.
For one job I was not going to make enough to justify purchasing gang forms and completing ourselves.
To be fair I was only using the CIC for the firewall partitions and ICF for the balance.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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slenzen
Registered Users
Posts:163
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| 04/13/2008 11:43 AM |
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I don't know the cost structure of the tilt up biz. I'd think there would be some oppty to make prefab CIC panels more affordable for residential. I'll do Tmass or ICF for my basement, and use another method for walls/roof. The shotcrete CIC panels are a little different. I got a quote of $5/sq ft to shotcrete the panels in place. Can't remember what the panels themselves run.
Larry, ACCBT is basically replacing traditional stick/insulation in one whack and doesn't address projectile protection like other systems. I guess all depends what one wants and the price. I'll have to check into gigacrete or some similar exterior finishing that gives some protection.
I really like the potential of shotcrete CIC panels but without local support it is tough going. Maybe the manufacturers have erection teams that can be contracted. MN is pretty heavy into ICF residential so much more local builder knowledge.(competitive pricing, higher quality) |
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