First off I want to be clear that I am not out to lambast a specific ICF manufacturer. I only want to point out the hazards of taking things for granted.

Yesterday I finally realized and confirmed that I received a defective batch of corner ICF blocks. Specifically, the outer corner of the blocks are 16 1/16", not 16" as they should be. In fact one block is 16 1/4" at the outer corner. The long leg is 16" at the end. The net result is in a stack up of five courses (what I have stacked so far) my corners are coming out 5/16" to 1/2" higher than the wall sections between the corners. There is a heavy line of foam at the mold line and quite a few blocks had a thin, one bead thickness, of foam flashing inside at the mold line. I've concluded the molds were not closed tightly when the blocks were formed. My supplier saw the situation yesterday and agrees with me. I have a call in to the block company to discuss the problem. I will be asking for compensation so you know this is a serious problem.

I have no idea what the relationship between the block company and its contract molder is and so have no idea who is responsible for allowing the defective product to be shipped. All I know is that at this point I received defective corner blocks and it's causing me a headache.

The fix that my supplier and I discussed is to trim the top course of blocks as necessary to give me a level top of wall. I'm not happy having to do that but I'm too far along to dismantle everything and replace the corner blocks. I had to force the corners plumb with bracing before I could install the window bucks. I will also have to foam gaps between courses near the corners. The gaps are caused by the corners rising faster than the straight blocks. I've concluded this problem existed in my foundation wall portion but I thought the discrepencies in height were caused by uneven footings.

So, the lesson to be learned is do not assume you will receive only perfectly formed blocks from your block company. If anything looks the least bit suspicious double check the blocks by stacking and measuring some test stacks.

BTW, I think my supplier realizes now why his crew was having problems with corner blocks on a recent job.

What brand blocks were these if you don't mind me asking?

The patent of your form is great, but poor molding is a bane of the industry. We've installed from many different molders, using the same patents/manufacturer, and the finished product can vary greatly between molders.

I think the brands that control QC by manufacturing in only a few select molders and subsidize shipping may have something after all, but the consumer loves the "ten plants to serve you better and save on shipping" hype.

Make your case clear and loud to the manufacturer immediately, take digital photos.
Was your molder in Post Falls? This would not be the first complaint against their service, we will no longer use product from that plant if at all possible....

Nice job problem solving, the QC is not limited to your "brand" either, we've seen it happen across the board, more often as I said with some molders than others....

I really don't want the make the brand the subject of this discussion as the molding contractor forms blocks for other companies also. I also have no idea who manufactured the molds or how the molding machines are set up or maintained. There could be several reasons for the defect - bad molds, improper operation of the mold machine, incorrect installation of the molds in the mold machine, careless or inadequately trained operators, production pressures causing operators to not be careful, worn out mold machines, who knows? This may be exacerbated by inadequate oversight of the contractor by the block company, past performance that has been stellar and now a one time problem has marred that record, quality reports to the block company or molding contractor management that have been "pencil whipped", or any one of a myriad of reasons.

I spent over 20 years in quality assurance and contractor oversight. There are hundreds of reasons why defective products leave a manufacturing plant. In the end however, the responsibility lies with upper management.

This problem could very well beset any ICF maker. One would have to have a tremendous amount of experience dealing with the dozens of ICF makers to justifiably name a specific brand as having a cronic quality problem. One incident does not create a historical record.

I just want to emphasize that if anything ever looks out of whack, don't hesitate to investigate further. My mistake was assuming that only perfect blocks would be delivered to me.

Have photos and have contacted the mfr.


No.

I had the exact same problem. My corner blocks were all 3/16" +  too tall in the very corner. I was stacking 10 blocks tall so I was looking at 2" too tall at the top of the wall. The real problem is that it makes the corner tilt in as you stack the blocks. I caught it at the third row and called the company. They sent someone to check the problem and one of the installers they work with. I actually had corner blocks  from 2 different lots and the problem was all one specific lot. They replaced the blocks with good ones and I had to unstack the wall to replace the bad blocks. This stopped the job for a couple of weeks. The sad part is  that when I had to order some extra corners I received some of the exact same blocks I sent back. I had marked the bad blocks with a marker and was floored the see them back in my new order. I am betting the manufacture sent the rest of my bad blocks to someone else instead of destroying them. Private mail me.

Opus

I was in manufacturing with my brother for many years and recently sold out to get into the ICF industry. We made parts for the motor vehicle industry and everything was tested to the MAX to insure quality control.

I was very frustrated with our first molders quality efforts and had to spend time developeing their QC program, unfortunatley they choose not to follow thru with the sample requirements and methods and continued to produce bad product. That seems to be an issue with several molders around the country, I guess it is because they have produced non critical product in the past.

We have worked with our new molder to develope a sample program that helps insure consistent product, as for the dimensional issue all of the forms we produce are sent under a height guage system to insure that the dimension is correct and it is easy to do. Not trying to sell you forms as much as I am trying to help you get quality product from the manufacturer.

In the end the Company that has there name associated as a brand of a particular block is responsible for quality. The lack of knowledge on the part of the seller relating to there quality is no excuse. I would like to know what manufacturers care so little about quality that they lack sufficient oversite to allow off spec product to be delivered and that they restock and resell out of spec product. Stories that are not brand specific place a cloud over all brands.

Mac;

Your issue sounds horrible, as a solution and a standard practice for me is to use a piece of 2x2 L metal on the top course prior to pour.

This has many advantages

1. In your situation to allows you to level the top of wall
2. Makes for screeding the top of the wall much easier and cleaner then the foam edge
3. I am require to place all hardware (AB's and Stabbolts) prior to pour...this gives me something to attach them to as opposed to trying to use the foam itself
4. Helps keep the wall straight

Mac, Your restraint is commendable. The product you are using is molded by a sub who provides molding, warehousing and shipping for their client.
Not exactly a "hands on" manufacturer. Nice 3rd generation block .
They ask you to measure your shipment and sign-off upon delivery.
At least here they are aware of potential issues and try to ward off problems....sorry to hear you got caught.
Thank-you for bringing this issue to everyone's attention.

What kind of 2 x 2 metal do you use, and where do you get it? When I started planning the project I considered using a channel but the only thing I could find locally, easily anyway, was 3" channel iron. For a one time use it was too pricey.

Well, here's the resolution. From a quality standpoint I'm not 100% satisfied but unless I find something additional to bolster my side of the issue I'll accept it.

First, the block company and molder have agreed to replace one bundle of corner blocks. Delivery will be on Monday so my project won't be delayed any. Second, the block company is sending me nominal compensation for my trouble.

What the block company QC manager told me is that the nationally accepted specification for molding ICF forms allows a dimensional variance of +/- 1/16", thus most of the blocks I was sold are within spec. I didn't catch the specification ID and haven't contacted him again yet to get it. I did a Google search for it but all I came up with is another interesting document that essentially confirms what he said. I found the "Standards and Practices of the Insulating Concrete Form Association", adopted on May 20, 2004. One of the requirements placed on a member is "Random dimension testing must be performed to ensure product is within 1/8" of target." That's double what the block maker QC manager said.

The QC manager also said it's common  to plan for some variation for wall height and installers typically trim the top to assure it's level so some variation in block dimensions is considered acceptable and normal.

The greatest problem with the QC manager's response is that every manufacturing process has variation above and below the target. If the molding process is properly controlled there very well may be as much as 1/8" variation from the target dimension, but over the entire production run blocks will be produced in roughly equal quantities with +1/8" and -1/8" size difference, and every size in between. When a significant portion of the blocks are on one side of the target they may technically meet the specification, but the process whereby they are made is not properly controlled. At this point I'm inclined to believe that the ICF industry does not utilize Statistical Process Control, and they should. For simplicity for those who aren't familiar with the concept I'll just say that's why years ago Japanese cars didn't leak oil and lasted so long when compared to American cars, and is the practice that Harley Davidson adopted and that brought itself back to prosperity from the brink of financial disaster.

So in the end everyone who uses ICF blocks must expect size variation, that size variation can be as much as 1/8" (according to ICFA document) and they must be prepared to deal with that variation.

I purchase mine from a drywall distributor, it is essentially drywall backing that I use, generally available in 20 and 25g. material

Mac,

And this is Monday morning quartebacking...did you consider TF system for the project? I am not plugging the system by any means but for our project with 48 corners (45's, 90's), the system seems ideal. It also does not float post pour. The wall height is almost assured to be what you placed and will stay so post pour. The corners are premade for the wall height and you assemble from the corners in. If you don't mind sharing and not mentioning names...how and why did you choose your system?

Leonard

1/8" might not seem like much but it adds up quick if it is in the wrong spot. My corner blocks were 16" high exactly on the ends but over sized 3/16" at the very corner. The top and bottom of the blocks were not parallel so in effect I was stacking triangles . The corner could  not be kept plum and within 3 rowes was tilted into the center of the room at least 1/2. At 8 feet tall the outside of the corner would be over 1 inch taller than the other edges of the block. There is no way to make that work without shaving every block to make the edges parallel. If you had straight blocks that were not parallel you could work with it if you had reversible blocks. I tried running my corner block through the table saw to make them 16" exact and releving any areas that did not  fit to get them together. You would not want to spend 15 minutes or more on every corner you stack. Even if your corner blocks have parallel edges but are 1/8" taller than your wall blocks how are you going to stack walls where the corners end up one inch taller than the rest of the wall? For a system to work well the blocks must be square and in the wrong place 1/8 "  out can be way too much. The replacement blocks I got were excellent in their fit so it can be done. I would say corners are more critical the straight sections and it would be very easy to check before shipping them out.

Thanks for the bit of insight on the height of the corner blocks. I will be starting to put up the blocks in the next 2 weeks. I measured all my corner blocks and they are all within 1/16 - 1/8 " of each other, all my blocks are undersized on the corners, not one is over 16". Excellent blog, sorry for your mistakes , but they are to my gain. I have never heard of Advantech, I will have to look around , maybe in adjoining states. My blocks came from a manufacturer in Canada, I live in Western new York. Mark

It would be interesting to know how frequently these dimensional problems show up. Are there brands that people use that do not have these problems?

I have encountered this & imagine that this is a very frequent occurrence in ICF. A 1/8" deviation in a block is intolerable, and when you have high ceilings & long spans & ICF contractors that don't like to use levels, the results are typical ICF construction. This is one of those unexpected problems one is not made aware of prior to construction & is very time-consuming to correct. It seems that the owner & not the ICF builder is supposed to inspect for these issues & if they don't, tough luck. If I had been aware that ICF construction did not adhere to strict standards I could have prepared for it because a well-versed homeowner is probably more capable & willing to put the time in to understand the process that the builder/distributor. For an ICF house I had constructed it required a similar amount of man-hours to identify and correct the imperfections caused by issues like this as it did to construct all the ICF walls (which were built be a well-regarded builder experienced with ICFs). Any inspection/advice should not be relied on by a general contractor or distributor as they probably have blinders on, are unconcerned about their consumers and have a limited understanding of tolerances.

In the construction industry there is no such thing as "strict standards": When pouring a footing it is always within a "+/- tolerance," 2x4's are not 2"x4", Ever seen studs 16.5" apart then the next ones 15.75"? Do you only use lumber that is perfectly straight? etc., etc.

My point is...ICF forms should land to the jobsite with a height tolerance of +/- 1/16", and a length tolerance of =/- 1/8". If they are outside those tolerances, don't accept them and call your supplier. If you are dealing with a local dealer, he should be there for the delivery anyways, providing customer service.

Also, I didn't know it was an accepted practice in ICF constuction to not use levels. Is it an epidemic or are you generalizing one particular occurance by a contractor?

And...."well versed home owner" should have built the home himself instead of hiring a licensed professional with verified references?????

Need to check out the TF System. You don't have any of the problems I've read in all of these posts with that system.