|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:754
 |
| 05/18/2008 7:39 AM |
|
robinnc;
I have not seen any fibers that replace re-bar |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Manfred
Registered Users
Posts:42
|
| 05/18/2008 8:36 AM |
|
Ok, guys. go to www.polytorx.com then read http://blog.mlive.com/wmbr/2008/04/builders_try_new_um_constructi.html ROBINNC call Al Juarez @ Helix 734-322-2114. He will confirm and leave no doubt of what the facts are.
Leonard, again sorry for the hijack, but here - I'll make it up to you: Maxit USA, a German based company, was bought out in 2007 by BMI products. google BMI products and follow the SILO technology. This technology is used the world over to deliver SCC into walls including ICF's. THis is a very little known fact in the US since we in the US are dependant on ready-mix companies.
|
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:754
|
| 05/18/2008 8:46 AM |
|
| As long as it's code compliant(and approved by your ICF supplier) ...GO FOR IT! |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:260
|
| 05/18/2008 10:08 AM |
|
Bob Gieser, maybe can you get Dave to report on his attempts with SCC, I believe the IMI 180mix.... He reported to me it blew out 4 inch forms.
With the admixtures, we have seen greatly reduced head pressures with higher slumps. However, the percussion of falling/firehosing high slump concrete in ICF walls becomes more of an issue. Concrete placement techniques must be adapted.
and here I am just wishing that we could get fly ash... |
|
|
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 10:52 AM |
|
Irnivek,
That's exactly what I am looking for...some one with real life experience with an SCC in a ICF pour. Could you imagine SCC and Helix if done right? No rebar (short of lintels) and no consolidation. That would be something.
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
|
| 05/18/2008 1:03 PM |
|
| I'll let you know when I do one, unless you beat me to it. |
|
|
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 1:10 PM |
|
Aronmac,
Just might. I want to see what the Agilia Block Fill runs for and I will speak with my foam folks to see if OK. I guess if we brace the holy heck out if it and with an accelerator it might work. I am worried if the foam will bow more so than a blow out, will see. If we do this will also price helix vs rebar. Sounds like from the initial conversation that the Lafarge folks are on board. They said they will come to the pour.
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
|
| 05/18/2008 1:25 PM |
|
I just got off the phone with the engineer I mentioned earlier. He gave me a link to contact someone for the fiber mix. After speaking with him I'm going to do a cost analysis to see what the difference would be. I could only imagine how much quicker the block would go up without the rebar.
I was wondering which region you are in and what you block you would be using if you do use the scc / fiber mix. |
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:304
|
| 05/18/2008 2:10 PM |
|
Unfortunately I have tried several times for the Fiber mix to reduce my Rebar... it's a no go in walls, slabs ok
I am in Siesmic F
LaFarge warned me in '02 not to use Agilia in ICF...have things changed since I've moved?
|
|
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 3:39 PM |
|
Aronmac,
I am in Western Maryland and I hope this project goes for us. We are between TF system and Quadlock. The project has ~50 corners including 45's. These system made the most sense for us.
Chris,
This is for Agilia Block Fill. Please the link that I posted earlier. They say that's one of their intentions (for ICF with a accelerator). I will speak with the rep on Tuesday to pull references for the pours. Again, PCA's RD 134 did pour SCC as one of their mixes.
I just hope the quote does not come back in a deal blowing fashion. Will see. |
|
|
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 3:41 PM |
|
Chris,
By "fiber" do you mean fiberglass? I am referring to Helix. |
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:304
|
| 05/18/2008 4:16 PM |
|
No not fiberglass, Helix metal fibers
Manufacturer and Engineers will not reduce any bar in ICF or any Pour In Place walls in my area (SF Bay Area)
I have heard others get away with it, but they are not in any siesmic zone close to what I have to deal with |
|
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 5:29 PM |
|
Chris,
Do you think that this is due to real concerns vs inexperience with this method? Helix touts on their web site that their wall is stronger than rebar reinforced. Of course SF is THE seismic zone, so maybe some liability concerns on the engineer? Just curious.
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:304
|
| 05/18/2008 5:53 PM |
|
Helix will not give any reference in their literature nor in their ICC approvals that their product is a 'replacement' product for rebar in siesmic zones, no testing has been completed or documented allowing me to use less rebar, engineers will not allow it since there is no ICC documentation for them to do the math so to speak.
remember I deal with 3 different shear values here
up and down, back and forth and all around...what kind of earthquake do you want today?
To give you an example I was in Florida 3 years ago and the builder hired an engineer for his ICF...#4 grade 40 on 48" o.c. both H & V
Me in California...#4 grade 60 @ 12" both H & V...I put in a EFC for #5 grade 60 @ 18" H and go either #4 @ 8" or #5 @ 16" V...that's for 6" wall max height 10', over that I have had #5 @ 8" V, and the last two I was sliding bar into the middle of the wall on H since the fault line was < 1/2 mile away. Consolidation is extremely important here since the amount of rebar is astronimical in the wall
If it's a retaining wall...well that's another story #6's and 7's are common...at $990.00/ton for rebar you better make sure you bid it right
All pours require special inspection, test cylinders, slump tests, mud in under 60 mins from plant to in the wall, @ 61 minutes they will stop the pour and send the truck away. Imagine 3 inspections (EOR, BI, and Sp. Insp.) prior to pour
Bottom line...your right...it is a liability issue and they just don't understand. And that I printed above is why ICF should not be a DIY item in my area
Oh yea, 2 months ago the Sp. Insp. looked in the wall and put my mud up to an 8" slump. He was freaking out at the bar pattern and wanted to make sure it got in and consolidated, first truck showed up at a 6", he had them radio in and juice it up before the next truck left the plant. I am happy to report the pour went well, flow was fantastic my white t-shirt did get a little dirty though with the splashing
|
|
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/18/2008 7:39 PM |
|
Chris,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. And in your particular case and in your service territory you better stick with the tried, verified, true, inspected, tripled stamp, etc. Well you get my point. I can't imagine the coordination that you must juggle to achieve a pour. And in our legal climate especially with your seismic risks I am sure all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted.
We only have to look at China what potentially substandard concrete construction can do to people in a major earth quake.
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
GeorgiaTom
Registered Users
Posts:122
|
| 05/18/2008 7:47 PM |
|
Posted By Chris Johnson on 05/18/2008 2:10 PM
Unfortunately I have tried several times for the Fiber mix to reduce my Rebar... it's a no go in walls, slabs ok
I am in Siesmic F
LaFarge warned me in '02 not to use Agilia in ICF...have things changed since I've moved?
Thats what I thought too
|
|
|
|
|
tdbuilder
Registered Users
Posts:1
|
| 05/19/2008 4:43 PM |
|
| Just my 2 cents but my crews us TF just because it seems to be the most versitle. |
|
|
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:107
|
| 05/19/2008 6:06 PM |
|
Posted By tdbuilder on 05/19/2008 4:43 PM
Just my 2 cents but my crews us TF just because it seems to be the most versitle.
I agree...my other favorite is Quadlock simply because of the design variations. I just hope that either of these products can handle the SCC mix. I think that the quadlock corner and t-wall designs is probably the strongest. Time wise in terms of setup I think TF is hard to beat.
|
|
|
|
|
drogers
Registered Users
Posts:68
|
|
GreenOaks
Registered Users
Posts:11
|
| 05/20/2008 10:23 AM |
|
| TF is a vertical ICF system, http://www.tfinsulatedconcreteforms.com/. I'm a QL rep so I'm partial to QL, but I like the fact that you can panelize TF |
|
|
|
|