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The Dynamic Duo
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 05/16/2008 4:11 PM |
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Hello
First post on here - we're building a 3 storey (basement + 2 living) house in Melbourne, Australia. We're using ICF for the external walls. I have a few questions I hope you can help me with -
For my project plan -
- How long will the concrete slab take to dry at ground level before we can start putting ICF blocks on it? I estimated 1 week, is that right?
- How long will ICF walls take to dry before we can put a floor slab on top of them? I estimated a week for that too.
- Has anyone used ICF to build a basement? What did you tank it with?
Bit more info - we will probably be building in an ICF called Thermacell, which is 200mm (8 inches) thick. The substrate of the land is very sandy.
Thanks very much for any information.
Simon |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:121
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| 05/16/2008 6:44 PM |
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Hello Mate! Throw another shrimp.... I'm sorry, couldn't resist. I just came back from working in California. Slab was poured on Friday they finished up around 4pm we were setting block Sat. morning after breakfast. We poured on Friday stripped out on Sat and the framers started on Monday. You want to pour a slab for your first floor as well, by the time you have it built and supported and ready to pour it should be fine.
When you say 'basement' are you talking about a below grade structure?, in Canada, ICF is all I use for building basements. Homeowners love the comfort of an ICF. They don't get the damp, cold feeling that you get from a 8" poured concrete wall.
Hope this helps!! |
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 05/17/2008 12:06 AM |
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tank it? I'm guessing waterproof.....there are a number of products. peel s& stick membranes ( grace, soprema, etc) or "dimple board" (Platon, etc.) or spray on (Tremco, etc.) it all depends on what is available and cost effective in your area.
As far as curing time, as Paul stated the day after pouring slab/foundation you should be able to start stacking forms. remember, it will most likely take a couple of days to stack the "light weight" forms before you fill them with concrete giving the foundation plenty of time to cure.
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 05/17/2008 11:00 AM |
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I'll add a couple things here from a non-builder perspective :-) I'm a professional Civil Engineer, and in my line of work we typically don't allow any type of stress to be applied to 'green' concrete - that is, concrete that is less than 3 days old. In most bridge construction, we won't allow a contractor to strip forms from concrete that is less than 3 days old, unless they pour a mix with a high percentage of cement. Obviously, we are talking about different stresses, loadings, etc from a bridge pier to a house, but you get the idea. While I know it is common practice in residential construction to strip forms and start setting block, etc, on top of concrete that is only a day or so old, I would not recommend it. It's pretty commonly accepted that concrete reaches about 85% of it's total strength in 7 days, and 95% or so in 28 days. When I build my new home - which will have an ICF basement, I might start setting the forms on top of the footings after a day or two, but I won't pour until the concrete is at LEAST 4-5 days old. Same thing for when I begin to build the floor structure on top of the basement.
Sorry, I don't have any good info for you on waterproofing (tanking?) the exterior of the ICF - but I expect I'll be using a 'platon' type membrane. These type of membranes have little bumps all over them that reduce capillary pressure against the membrane and what it's protecting. I'm also building in very sandy soil, but you only get to waterproof the basement exterior once - so do it right :-)
Oh - I'm not criticizing you, but concrete does not dry, it cures, due to the chemical reaction that takes place between the lime in the cement, the water, and the aggregates. I just thought you would like to know the difference :-) |
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The Dynamic Duo
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 05/18/2008 5:21 AM |
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Posted By Paul Stevens on 05/16/2008 6:44 PM
Hello Mate! Throw another shrimp.... I'm sorry, couldn't resist.
Ha ha
Even though I live in Australia, I'm English by birth, married to a New Zealander!
Thanks everyone for the help. The timings are very helpful.
I went to a building show today where 2 local ICF companies were showing, they showed me a couple of waterproofing options. One was a sort of rubberised render that they spray on below-ground contructions, another was a non-permeable sheet that is hung over the basement wall before backfilling. I think my concern about this would be, what happens if the sheet tears during backfilling? How would I ever know until water started coming in!
Anyone any experience of similar products at all?
Thanks guys.
Simon
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:121
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| 05/19/2008 9:14 AM |
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Simon
I'm from England as well, but have been in Canada since I was 8. It is surprising how many people still think that I have an accent!! I make sure to tell them it would be impossible for me to have accent since it is the English language that we all speak, therefore, we must have invented it!!
When you say non-permeable sheet, do you mean a type of 'peel and stick' membrane, a thick rubberized material that comes in rolls??
I use a few different products depending on which ICF I use, whichever brand name they supply, Nudura has their own brand name, Logix has Resisto or I buy a product called Blue Skin at the local lumber store. All are the same thing, pretty much.
I don't worry about the 'sheet' tearing during backfill, our Code requires backfill be done with a 'clean' material, typically sand is used, it is free draining as well as it being free of any rocks or materials with a sharp edges that would damage the waterproofing.
If that is still a concern of yours, you can cover the 'peel n stick' with another product called Delta MS, I am not sure is this is available in your area but something similar may be. Check it out at www.deltams.com. This product is a solid plastic dimple board, that you would roll on on top of your peel n stick. you use a screw and washer system and attach it at the top to the attachment strip in the ICF. There is no way that this product will tear, unless the excavator hits it!! The dimples in the product leaves a channel between it and your wall for water to run just in case some gets between them.
I have used both in the past and so far no one has called me back to fix a leak.
Good luck
Paul |
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The Dynamic Duo
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 05/19/2008 5:49 PM |
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Posted By Paul Stevens on 05/19/2008 9:14 AM
Simon
I'm from England as well, but have been in Canada since I was 8. It is surprising how many people still think that I have an accent!! I make sure to tell them it would be impossible for me to have accent since it is the English language that we all speak, therefore, we must have invented it!!
That's something I say too!!!
Thanks for the advice, very helpful indeed.
Simon |
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 05/22/2008 7:12 PM |
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Typically, we'll keep the braces on the walls for three days after the pour, depending on how tall/ long the walls are, and how windy it is.
I would definitely let your walls cure for at least 3 days before you start backfilling against them. As Paul mentioned, I'll usually use a peel n stick membrane ( if you have problems getting the peel n stick to stick due to weather or anything else, you can clean and primer the walls prior to applying the peel n stick) and then always use the bubble backer (thats what we call it). You should make sure that you don't have any wood or large rocks in the fill, but just in case you miss something, it is good to know you have the extra protection. For myself, I would never waterproof without it. |
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The Dynamic Duo
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 05/25/2008 5:48 AM |
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Thanks for your advice.
The fill that will be excavated to build the basement could contain anything, as it was formed when they subdivided the area and contains a lot of asphalt, bricks etc.
If we want to backfill with this, how the hell would we "sieve" it ???? :)
Simon |
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 05/25/2008 11:55 AM |
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| I'll watch each bucket as it's going in and pull out wood, bricks, etc... I know I won't be able to catch it all, and thats why I feel better with having the bubble backer. I should not have used the word never because there are other ways of water proofing (Paul had mentioned) than using the membrane. You could go with a roll or spray on, but even so with these, you can protect the waterproofing with a grout like product ( I forget the name), but you mix it up like grout and apply it with a trowel, and it protects the water proofing. I still think the membrane with backer is better though. |
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