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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 05/31/2008 12:10 AM |
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ICFguy...
I would like to see photos of the 4 different systems being used on one project...I can't picture why anyone would need to go to that extent to complete one job
Never in my career have I been required to use different blocks for different applications on a single project |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:40
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| 05/31/2008 12:17 AM |
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Check out Logixicf.com to find a local contact and they should be very helpful. I know that Logix has a 10" and 12" form. The form height that you choose should be based upon the horizontal rebar schedule your engineer is specifying. Standard is 16" o.c. which is why most companies' forms are 16" tall. In regards to the bracing I agree w/ Paul Stevens...It is necessary to get straight walls. The nice thing about dealing with a local dealer is that if you purchase the ICF from them (at a reasonable price) they will normally work with you on the bracing rental. You are getting the whole package and the local service. As far as quality of forms......from my experience all the major "flat wall" systems available (Logix, Arxx, Nudura, Amvic, etc.,) perform their intended function: hold concrete while making straight walls, if braced properly. It's all the intangible factors that need to be taken into consideration: price, support, availability, product line, etc.
Good Luck with your project!!
Scott |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:143
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| 05/31/2008 12:22 AM |
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| I'm with Chris, 4 different blocks for 1 job??? It seems to me like someone is trying to bash one system and promote another....but I could be wrong! |
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:40
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| 05/31/2008 12:49 AM |
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Chris& Paul you'de be surprised....I am right there with you, but I've seen at least 3 on 1 project. The original company that "sold" the project on ICFs only made 8" forms, so the client went with them for that portion, but the project was designed with 10" and some 12" concrete for the below grade walls. Then it came down to price and availability for the those and they each came from different manufacturers (the company that made 12" at the time charged 'too much' for their 10" form). If the end client knew more about what they were doing, it should have all come from one source, but crazy things do happen when building 25,000s.f. homes!!!
And yes, the drywall guys were able to find the studs on all three "block based forms" used on the project.
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 05/31/2008 1:07 AM |
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SoCal...
I understand your three on one job, that was just pure ignorance from the get go, had the user chose a supplier that carried all form sizes one would have worked. What I understand ICFguy to be saying is 4 blocks were needed to achieve one job since not one manufacturer had the ability to meet the architectural demands of the said project.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/01/2008 1:13 PM |
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Weighing in again on the ease and versatility of the TF System.
There is no renting of bracing with TF. You use 2 x lumber to line and brace it. You will reuse that same lumber throughout the rest of the build as your line bracing, blocking, backing. No added expense for bracing rentals.
TPG |
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:40
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| 06/01/2008 1:53 PM |
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How do you handle pouring & vibrating walls? Wouldn't you still need to rent some sort of scaffold for that? conventional or rolling scaffold/scissor lift, etc?
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/01/2008 3:26 PM |
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You don't vibrate ICF's. You pour a fairly wet mix that flows through the cavities. If the mix does come out too stiff you can use a dildo (and I'm not talking about the one that your girl friend keeps handy when you're having trouble). DO NOT drop it in and run it like you would on regular foundation walls. You do a quick drop and be gentle. Another technique I've seen is to use a sawsall without the blade in it and press it up against the ties or ladders.
With block systems, the bracing you rent has an arm to lay a plank on.
My crews simply walk the top of the TF system. It does have a width of 13 inches and the top has cross ties every four foot to hold the top together. The TF system doesn't have a setting issue, so walking on top of it doesn't affect it. There is plenty to walk on. We have used one set of rolling scaffold at times.
One of the greatest attributes of the TF system is leveling at the top of the systems. You install a metal cap aat the top of the form that you shoot in with a level on two ends (and in the middle on longer runs) and then use a string to level in between. Even if you have snaggled tooth foundation contractors installing your footer, you float the top channel to a level plane. I've worked with many block ICFs and the settling has always been an issue. The shimming and furring of the plate installed on top of the pour is never pretty sand gets epensive.
As I haven't used a block system for several years now, I would not know if they have resolved that problem.
TPG
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pcoughlin
Registered Users
Posts:76
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| 06/01/2008 5:02 PM |
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Panel Guy -
Internally vibrating ICF's is a standard practice for many ICF contractors across the country. In my humble opinion if your not vibrating your walls to achieve proper consolidation, you are asking for trouble. I really like the concept of the TF system, but if your not using internal vibration to consolidate your walls my spider senses tell me that you probably did use internal vibration in the past with poor results (maybe the product couldn't handle it?). Im not trying to be the bad guy its just that I have seen projects in my area put up by other contractors have lots of problems because of lack of consolidation. So bad in fact that the city of Bend, Or now has a special 'ICF inspector' that charges a mandatory fee to come out on your pour day to make sure that you are properly consolidating your walls.
- Peter Jr |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:143
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| 06/01/2008 8:39 PM |
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I believe that the person who started this thread is looking to build in southern Cali. where internal vibration is a must due to the Special Inspector who will be on hand during the entire pour just to make sure that you vibrate.
Second, I just can't see the Building Inspector of the Engineer walking around on the top of the wall to inspect without using a OSHA approved scaff. system.
To me it doesn't sound like a good way to do things.
Do your own footings, if you know how to use a laser level then getting the footings PERFECTLY level is easy. I do it all the time. Spending a little extra time on footings saves lots later on. If need be keep the laser set up while you are finishing of the footing a keep checking as you go, do it. You just can't beat a perfect footing, and it doesn't take much more to get it that way. |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 06/01/2008 9:34 PM |
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Special Inspections are mandatory in California for any concrete work >3000 psi (California Building Code new and old versions)
Internal vibration is the ONLY acceptable method as per ACI, who started this BS with a sawsall without the blade??? That thing won't shake feathers let alone wet, heavy concrete.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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wes
Registered Users
Posts:376
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| 06/02/2008 7:32 AM |
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Chris,
The 'sawzall BS' was actually started by the ICF manufacturers. It was in the first instruction manual I ever read. And it was in more than one. External vibration was the only 'approved method' at the time. In fact, 'no vibration necessary' can still be heard from some in the business.
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 06/03/2008 6:26 PM |
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| Hey Chris, I'm with you on the internal vibration, but I've used a sawzall with great success. I used a milwaukee 18 volt battery sawzall that I took the guard off of, so that the head could tap the wall. That did not work until I rigged a flat piece of plywood, around 12"x12" with a piece of a wood stake screwed to it for a handle. I held the wood in a way so that every time I hit it with the sawzall it would bounce between the walls and sawzall head. It actually worked so well that I had to slow down on the strokes because I was concerned about shaking the walls out of plumb (arxx braces, 6' 0.c.). I know that sounds funny and a little hill billy, but just something I've tried. like you, I make it a practice of vibrating internally, but am definately not opposed to coming up with an idea that could replace internal vibrating. |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 06/03/2008 8:56 PM |
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Aronmac...I'm laughing as I read your first sentence thinking this is hillbilly-ish, glad you said it first!!!
I'll stick to internal...issues I run into is technically you can't add water to concrete. depending on my special inspector and the distance/time the concrete arrives I sometimes get stuck with a 4" slump which can be a challenge to get into a 6" wall filled with #5 bar, without internal vibration I'd be hung up all over the place. Moreover special inspectors would shut the pour down if I showed him a sawsall as a vibrator.
Can anyone find some other then internal being allowed under ACI guidelines?
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/04/2008 5:12 PM |
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To internally vibrate or not to internally vibrate - That is the question !
I've been reading with interest and some humor, all of the comments made about vibrating ICFs. All I have to say is, you have go with what has worked for you.
I was the person that started the 'sawzall BS', cause it works. I can see that it might not work with block systems. I'm a TF advocated and since the ladders are concentric from the bottom of the wall to the top, to press that sawzall at any point of the ladder and you can watch the concrete turn to jelly.
I'm thinking a good thread to start is the type of mixes we all use. The mix I use runs through the TF system like baby poop. Vibrating is the least important part of the operation. |
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woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 06/05/2008 3:00 AM |
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Concrete is still just concrete whether it in a wood ,steal , aluminum , or icf form.
The only industry accepted method to ensure proper adhesion to re-bar is to internally vibrate.
External vibration will just make the out side of the pour look good but it dose nothing for the re-bar to concrete connection.
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Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
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drewsteele
Registered Users
Posts:15
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| 06/05/2008 4:10 AM |
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Couple of you guys have mentioned that TF System - I did a search on the forums for TF and Nothing came up - I figure the search function for the forum dont work so well ; )
Anyway - Can anyone comment about these systems - and please - dont be so darn PC - just comment on your experiences with the product - Ideally Id love to hear from a builder that has experience with both.
Maybe frame it up as it pertains to my situation - Im a first time owner builder - I'd rather not rent bracing for a month -
Pros of the verticle system?
Cons of the verticle system?
Comparisons to block system?
Are there more than one manufacturer of Verticle systems?
I see plastic and light gauge webs (ibeams) and thoughts on difference?
again - thanks for the discussion guys -
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renangle
Registered Users
Posts:91
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| 06/05/2008 9:20 AM |
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drewsteele,
It seems that this site has been hijacked a little to discuss why the TF system is the one to use on this project. Most folks here try not to necessarily promote one block over the other, but rather inform you of options so that the forum can continue is intent of being positive stewards of the ICF industry. This link
http://www.icfmag.com/documents/ICF_COMP_CHART/08_composite_comp_chart.pdf
will take you to a comparision chart of most all of the ICFs currently being used. I looked at the TF system and it seems that its building code compliance is currently pending, thought that may have changed over time. If I were looking to do what you are doing, I would stick with some of the big manufactures that advertise on this site or if I were going to name some, I would say Amvic, Reward, Nudura, Eco-Block, etc. TF could be fine, but I am honestly less familiar with them. I do know that there is a large operator somewhat near you in Nevada City, CA you could certainly try them... http://www.amvic-pacific.com/contact.html
I understand that The Panel Guy has enough experience with ICF that he doesn't require the need for a structural engineer, nor to really brace much, and not use a vibrator, even if there are some extra long windows, I will stive to have the much knowledge. After looking at his website and review his formula of building ICF at $15.00 a sq.ft. which is around 30% more than me I am impressed.
In the end, I just want things to work out for you that is paramount. Review the chart, throw out your ideas on this forum and you will probably get a positive response. Sorry to rant on The Panel Guy, but I couldn't take it anymore.
Respectfully,
renangle |
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renangle
Registered Users
Posts:91
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| 06/05/2008 9:42 AM |
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drewsteele,
I would rent bracing. If you are efficient, you shouldn't have them up for more than 5 days depending on the size and aggressiveness of your build. Put up the braces, pour the wall, take them down and send back until you need them for the next floor. They shouldn't cost you a fortune and will definately save you from a labor standpoint, plus it just makes sense. I would only consider not renting bracing if it was geographically exceptionally difficult. We are doing a 10,000 sq.ft. house and brace rental should be at maybe $1800.00 for all three floors.
Plastic webs work fine, if you need to cut into light guage it can be a hassle. As for plastic webs, I would certainly want to keep spacing to a minimum, most are 8" oc other 6" oc...we only use 6" oc as they seem to be a little stronger for the pressure placed on them by the concete. Vertical system could work fine, they have been very popular. The research that you have done on them should tell you something.
renangle |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/05/2008 5:38 PM |
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woulfcc,
I'd thought that the purpose of vibration was to eliminate voids, I'd not heard of it also being a rebar issue. Is this a micro-application of the same issue; that is, is it eliminating air pockets around the rebar or is it doing something else entirely?
This is why I enjoy this site -- I keep seeing new stuff.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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