Dew Points in ICF walls
Last Post 03 Sep 2008 04:39 PM by gregj. 4 Replies.
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orlandoicfUser is Offline
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28 Aug 2008 08:54 PM
I had an interesting conversation with an architect who "needs" documentation indicating the dew point of an ICF wall.  He is concerned about moisture accumulating within the walls and causing nasty issues behind the interior drywall.  We are in Central Florida and have lots of water intrusion issues with other walls commonly used in this area - CMU.  My thinking is that a "dew point" concern is not applicable in this area as the walls never have a chance to get "cold" enough to create moisture (droplets) in or on the wall - kind of the reverse of a cold weather climate with interior heat.....reminder, our outdoor environment is always (or most of the time) warm and moist.  Any thoughts?? or better yet, any dew point analysis out there?  If yes, would be most helpful to view an ICF wall dew point report versus a CMU wall dew point report.
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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29 Aug 2008 01:41 AM
The dew point on an ICF wall is in the center of the concrete, even in the coldest climates the outside cold and interior heat never have a chance to get there and create dew. Your architects concern is a non issue. I think the main issues your architect is dealing with most likely come from poor waterproofing around windows and doors allowing a moisture intrusion leading to mold and mildew issues.
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
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02 Sep 2008 06:21 PM
"Dew point" is a relative thing, relative to temperature and humidity. The concern is condensation in or on a wall. A common problem here in cold Minnesota, and can result in mold. It is a non-issue with ICFs, and is an issue with stick, CMU and RCFs because they conduct temperature well, or in the case of stick framing allow air flow too.
Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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03 Sep 2008 05:14 AM

I have seen thermal gradient diagrams through walls that are usefull for dew point calculations....I think in one of Lstiburek's publications, but you can do it yourself and be close.  If you look you will see how they deal with the different R values of different materials. 

You should really do it with a complete wall assembly, but to keep it simple, assume the concrete core section has an R value of 0 and your inner and outer insulation thickness are the same.  Accordingly, the concrete core temperature will be very close to midway between the indoor and outdoor temperature.  Despite the relatively low permeance of EPS, because of the joints in the ICF, the concrete could be considered a condensation plane even though the joints affect a miniscule area of the wall.

If you know the indoor design conditions (temp and humidity), the dew point can be compared to the core temperature of the wall.

Your architect should remember that (in order):

1. Water vapor is moved by air movement
2. Water vapor is driven from warm areas to cold areas by thermal gradient
3. Water vapor is driven from high concentration to low concentration by the concentration gradient

I don't think any of these will be a problem with most  ICF situations unless you want to build a heated, indoor swimming pool room in the north country.

Bruce

gregjUser is Offline
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03 Sep 2008 04:39 PM
I would think that the ICF suppliers would have the necessary docs the architect needs. I would also think that the architect would know how to obtain the info necessary to do his job.
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