flocculus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 22 Dec 2008 09:21 PM |
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Hello all
I'm a really-wannabe ICF homeowner in coastal NC. I've learned so much from reading a ton of your posts here, so thank you. ICF homes are unheard-of in my area, so my architect and contractor are learning with me as we go. I would very much appreciate any feedback on my project and costs. Although the plans are drawn, I'm in danger of having to revert to conventional design due to costs. Can you help save my ICF house?
The house will be on a sloped lot, with 1/2 basement (780 sf) and a main floor (1660 sf), half (880sf) on grade. It's passive solar design with most of the solar gain in the main floor over the basement, so I need a suspended concrete floor over the basement for thermal mass. Both slabs are rectangular. Suspended ceiling also rectangular except for a stairwell. The main floor has 6 corners. Basement walls are 1050sf; main floor walls are 1232sf.
The only ICF (Polysteel) contractor in the area that I'm aware of has quoted a price of approx. $90K turnkey for the slabs, the walls, and an Insuldeck suspended floor. I don't have all the breakdown, but the walls are around $41K.
These costs have run me way out of budget -- and way more than the 0-5% total house cost increase so often quoted. Changing the basement walls to concrete block will help a little. Maybe changing the Insuldeck to joists with separate insulation will help a little. But I'm still not in a range I can pull off. I have to be able to sell this small house one day without a huge loss.
Does the quote sound right? Any other ideas for cutting cost without giving up ICFs or passive solar? Thanks for any experienced voices.
John
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 22 Dec 2008 09:33 PM |
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Unfortunately without plans and knowing the local market to you giving an estimate would be difficult.
Find your CMU price, strap the walls and insulate...how does that compare to ICF?
Now for upstairs, figure out the exterior wall costs incl. insulation and compare to the ICF, now where are you at?
Do similar for the floor system.
Worse case scenario...sit down with the ICF contractor, show him your conventional construction numbers and see where you come in. I don't want to say the guy is expensive, but see where the major hits are. In my area (CA.) I can assure you that by doing everything to compare apples to apples (which isn't really fair with conventional to ICF) ICF is not more expensive. Mind you my codes are much more strict (I believe) which gives me an advantage.
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 23 Dec 2008 01:03 AM |
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John, send me your plans to [email protected] via pdf file. I work out of the Raleigh/Durham area and can assist. Thanks. |
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| Manfred Knobel<br>Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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flocculus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 23 Dec 2008 02:01 AM |
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Chris, thanks for the thoughts. I will try to get that information, although firm numbers may be hard to come by.
And, Manfred, thank you for your offer. I have e-mailed you. |
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Dug
New Member
Posts:45
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| 23 Dec 2008 02:11 AM |
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Your bid of $41k seems a bit on the high side... As a very rough rule of thumb, your walls should run anywhere from $12 (per square foot of wall) or up, depending on complexity of design, local builidng costs and a slew of other "factors".
I am in the process of building my own home and cost of materials for my walls ran about $6 per square foot of wall. I used Logix with 6 inch core and poured 4000 psi crete with #4 above ground and #5 below ground on 16 inch centers. I could have saved a few bucks by going 32 inch on my rod and 3500 psi crete, but you only get one chance to do it right. Figuring $6 per foot for materials and my house being a very simple design (a big ole rectangle), I would expect to pay a contractor $12 (maybe $10 if the stars aligned just right).
You could cut a chunk by skipping the suspended concrete floor. How much will you save in heating dollars versus the cost of hanging that mud?
I struggled for several years deciding if ICF was the right choice. After feeling the walls full of concrete and knowing I had something that would not only outlast my great grand kids, but would also keep them warm in the winter, cool in the summer and safe during tornado season, I knew I had made the right choice. |
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ETB
New Member
Posts:2
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| 23 Dec 2008 01:08 PM |
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I'm a ICf Builder in NC from Wake Forest.I build across the state and would be more than happy to take a look at your plans.You can also check out my website to see how we can build your house www.etbuilders.com.or www.meahomes.com My email address is [email protected] |
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txcoast
New Member
Posts:1
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| 23 Dec 2008 05:13 PM |
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John,
I'm in the same position you are, but was quoted over $110K for the walls and slab (w/installation) for a 2800 sq ft (two-story no basement) ICF in Texas. The $12/sq ft average Dug talks about is in line with the estimates from my contractors. If these numbers are right, then the marketing about an ICF home costing within 5% of conventional is truly misleading. I too am having second thoughts given the extreme cost. |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 23 Dec 2008 09:07 PM |
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Guys;
Realize a few things...
1. Lumber is in a low cycle right now, 2x material is 1/3 to 1/2 of what it was 16 months ago
2. What are you framing with? 2x4 or 2x6? 2x6 is 30% more than 2x4
3. Have you considered the smaller heating/cooling system (no alot of money, but work with me here)
4. Have you considered long term energy costs?
5. Have you considered ICF speed (depending on the crew) and the cost of borrowing construction funds?
6. Are there rebates available locally for building with such energy efficient products?
7. Have you dealt with more than one supplier/installer on your particular project?
This list can go on and on
But I will add there is a reason more and more people are looking to ICF homes, you need to review and decide for yourself...and that requires some homework.
Good Luck
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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flocculus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 23 Dec 2008 09:09 PM |
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Dug, thanks for the ballpark numbers. They sound more reasonable than what I have encountered so far. On the passive solar/concrete floor, the design has been changing, so I don't have good calculations yet. But my preliminary figures are that I will be able to cut out most of my heating cost, in this mild climate. But I'll keep your thought in mind...although dropping it would require a major re-design due to all my south-facing glazing currently.
Rick, thank you for your interest. At the moment, I am committed to trying to work things out with my contractor. I'm looking for a workable solution for just the concrete work...for now.
Txcoast, thanks for your input, too. Actually, I would be pretty happy with the value of ICF at $12/sf of wall. I'm currently at $18/sf for the ICF. If I could cut all my concrete costs by that 1/3, I'd be set. At $12/sf, I think it's probably reasonable to talk about increasing the whole-house costs by less than 5%. At my $18/sf, it's considerably more than that. Now, it would be more forthcoming to talk about increase in cost in the wall system. Even then, as Chris points out, it depends on what you're comparing to. But sealing up a stick-built house well is expensive, too. I'm thinking that, at $12/sf, ICF would increase my wall system price by about 10%. I've just got to get to $12/sf. And you all are giving me some hope that there is a way to do that. I'll get back to working on this in earnest after the holidays. |
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flocculus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 23 Dec 2008 09:37 PM |
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Chris, your points are well taken and include the reasons I'm pursuing ICF (and passive solar, metal roof, efficient appliances, etc.) to start off with. But, still, there is only so much money in the monthly budget for housing. And, in considering resale, there are currently few people out there with foresight to pay more for an energy-efficient house. Hopefully, that number is growing. But my current total projected costs per sq ft are nearly 200% of the basic construction here. There really aren't many people with that much foresight. You're right -- it does take a lot of homework to try to balance all these things. All of your perspectives help. |
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Tony Wilkey
New Member
Posts:14
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| 23 Dec 2008 10:03 PM |
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But the bank doesn't care about any of that.
I have received quotes and appraisals for building the same house in two different markets. Brownsville, Texas and Northeast Kansas.
I can get a 2x6 stick house(Same Plan) built for slightly less or the same as what the project appraises for.
ALL of my ICF quotes are for 30-100% more than the project appraisals. BTW the appraisers give zero value for ICF constuction.
If you have the cash to fund the entire project you can consider all the long term advantages and make a decision. If you need a loan, forget it, the banks/appraisers don't care.
Tony
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ICFconstruction
Veteran Member
Posts:1324
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| 23 Dec 2008 10:09 PM |
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When my GCs told me 3-5% more for an ICF house. That does not include an Insulated Floor Form floor system, and like Chris said it isn't fair to compare wood to ICFs. Same goes with the floor a cast-in-place concrete floor that you can park a truck on versus a spongy wood truss floor.
Also PolySteel, while being a great ICF is about a $1 more per sf. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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irnivek
Basic Member
Posts:229
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| 23 Dec 2008 10:25 PM |
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I gave my insurance agent a call to remind them our home is ICF/masonry construction. She gave us a $200.00 a month rebate immediately.
Kevin |
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Dug
New Member
Posts:45
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| 24 Dec 2008 12:53 AM |
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I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but... that suspended concrete floor is overkill, especially in a mild climate like coastal NC. And, you don't need to change a thing regarding your window design. Keep the southern windows, you'll still pick up the same heat gain, you just won't retain it as long.
If mass is a major concern, another option to consider is tile floors or gypcrete poured over your subfloor. Either would add mass with smaller upfront cost than suspeneded concrete. And, as a final crazy idea thrown out, go with your suspeneded concrete and stain it as a finished floor. Our basement will be finished space, but rather than dumping a few thousand into flooring, we will dump a few hundred into stain and sealer.
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ETB
New Member
Posts:2
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| 24 Dec 2008 12:59 AM |
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Hey let just say this 'I'm a better talker than typer" so please forgive my mistakes.
Here goes -
I know you can build the ICF walls for $12/sf to $14/sf on the coast. When you compare stick built to ICF in building the same house to drywall stage, ICF costs about 8% to 10% more than stick built. But the performance of the ICF is far superior. The biggest factor in the cost of your house will be how you choose to finish it.
The thing you may want to think about is the total R value for the ICF and how long will it take to get a return on the passive solar.
When you are building with wood you need every advantage you can get and passive solar is a good idea. But when you build with ICF walls, seal the crawl space, spray foam the attic and install Low-E windows this is the best way you can build for the least amount of money.
In my opinion the cooling of your house is a bigger problem on the coast in NC than heating,with ICF a standard HVAC system can give you the comfort you are looking for and costs less.
I am a licensed general contractor, but I also work with homeowners and other contractors who do not have experience with the ICF's. I would be willing to work with your contractor and do the ICF installation portion of the project only.
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brentf
New Member
Posts:1
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| 05 Jan 2009 09:18 PM |
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John,
I am a representative covering the Carolinas for Greenblock. I am here to help you find the right size and material for your home project. I would like to take a look at your plans and see if we can come within your budget. I can price it out two ways- turnkey or material only. I have a source that has built 3 homes and is very pleased with Greenblock ICF. He can offer you his service for installation. Check out our website www.greenblock.com and watch the 3 min. video. It will give you a great deal of information on GB. Please contact me through email at [email protected] I look forward to working with you. |
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HansConst
New Member
Posts:14
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| 06 Jan 2009 03:46 PM |
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You can be happy, just shop some more. We install throughout the Western USA. We more than compete with the bare concrete basement contractors, and although difficult, we try to compete with above grade framing, however wood framing isn't ICF in any manner. Here is our breakdown for you to compare your estimates with.
Block, concrete ($100/yd), rebar, labor, misc at $8.85
Your 2282 sf walls = $20,195.70
Footings approx 40' x 42' ( 1680 sf) = $2400
Walls and Footings at $22595.70 Total or $9.90 S.F.
Slab 1660 sf at $5 sf = $8300
Total project at $30,895.70 and the suspended floor, whatever style is extra.
Sound better? I estimated some on the size so let me know if any of the numbers are out of whack.
It's OK guys, I have posted numbers like this previously and taken a lot of heat so I suppose I can take some more. Your comments are welcome. ICFs totally make sense to me. |
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flocculus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 06 Jan 2009 09:52 PM |
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Hans, thanks for the detailed information. Yes, now having found some other good folks here to talk with, prices are coming closer to what you are saying -- with a little difference for my mis-measurements and somewhat higher concrete cost here. I don't think the original contractor will come into line with market prices, but I'm looking at other options. I think that the ICF I have wanted will proceed! Thanks to all for this.
John |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 06 Jan 2009 10:25 PM |
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Hans, I'm not going to give you heat, but just curious as to what you are allowing per sq.ft. for block and per ton for bar. Is that 6" or 8"? Do you have GL and WC? How much are you paying for a boom pump per hour and per yard, do you own your bracing and is it paid for or do you rent it?
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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Paul Stevens
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 09 Jan 2009 05:30 PM |
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Hans, are you saying you can supply and install for $8.85 per square. If that is the case could you give a detailed breakdown of the costs for all materials. My ICF block alone costs $4/square. could you show me how you can do it, because at that price I would have tons of work.
Paul Stevens |
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