newbiejohn
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| 05/19/2009 8:27 PM |
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I know this topic has been beaten around the bush but I have a question from a 'newbie' perspective:)
I see that people are cutting into and out the 2.5" of foam insulation to install the electrical box.
Doesnt this completely ruin the purpose of the ICF to begin with?
If I live in a very cold climate and I take out chunks of the interior foam (several in every room) for outlets, arnt I voiding the major plus of the ICF system itself (the insulation!).
Im not leaning towards ICF at the last moment (1 month before we begin building) but have these all important issues.
1. Im doing my own electric and plumbing so im having to think about how to do this.
2. I live in very cold climate and worried, I know this is the ICF section of the site, but do you really believe that ICF is the best building practice for the entire house, in and cold climate? Leaps and bounds better than double wall construction and SIPS?
3. What other things should I be looking at to keep an eye on my contractor ?
4. How hard will it be to install my new InLine triple pane windows ? I have no idea how hard it is in ICF construction.
5. Any other tips ot make my house TIGHT as possible.
6. Also, are there issues with siding the home with Hardi Plank or Vinyl ?
Keep in mind its a ranch style home.
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dmaceld
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| 05/19/2009 8:44 PM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/19/2009 8:27 PM
I see that people are cutting into and out the 2.5" of foam insulation to install the electrical box.
Doesnt this completely ruin the purpose of the ICF to begin with?
Let's say you have the equivalent of 200 boxes for receptacles and switches. At about 2 1/4 x 4 that's a total of 2000 sq in, or about 14 sq ft, of foam taken out. Now if you have a house that's about 30' x 60' with 9' walls there's about 10,620 sq ft of wall. 14/10,260 = .13%. That's probably about 1/100 of the normal uncertainty in heating & cooling calculations! You'll lose more heat and cool by leaving the front door open for 10 minutes than you will through switches and receptacles in a season. Some things just aren't worth worrying about!!
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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arkie6
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| 05/19/2009 11:30 PM |
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You're not considering putting any windows or doors in your house are you? That would completely defeat the purpose of having ICF walls also.
How many square inches of interior foam are lost because you put one or two cut-outs in the exterior wall for electrical outlets per room?
Now compare this to the area of the window(s) and/or door(s) on that wall.
Also, you still have the exterior foam intact with the electrical outlet. No such case with the window or door. Assuming you have 2.5" thick EPS foam forms, that still leaves you with an R value of ~10.5. That is a better R value than all but the most expensive windows. Air tightness is not compromised with the electrical outlets on the inside of the concrete, but I can assure you that no door or window will be air tight, especially over years of use and under changing environmental conditions.
If you are really concerned about the cold and wall insulation, you can ICF forms with extra thick insulation on the outside (standard is ~2.5" per side) or you can overlay additional 1" or thicker foam board over the outside yourself after the wall pour.
In general, windows are installed on ICF walls similar to standard frame construction. Typically, wood or PVC "bucks" are installed prior to the concrete pour around window and door openings to provide attachment points and support the wet concrete. These bucks can be installed flush with the outside edge of the foam walls or inset inside the foam to provide a better thermal break between the exterior and interior. If inset, you will need longer screws to attach window frames to the wall.
Siding is typically screwed into the plastic ties rather than nailed.
It is hard to beat poured concrete walls for air tightness.
For sealing the ceiling, assuming you are doing standard wood or wood truss roof construction with sheetrock on the ceiling, you can have an inch or so of spray foam applied between the ceiling joists to help seal things up then have a foot or more of blown cellulose applied above that. |
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newbiejohn
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Posts:141
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| 05/20/2009 6:41 AM |
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Ok, I see your point about the sqaure inches vs walls etc.
I should revise my post as I miswrote it.... IM NOW thinking of ICF instead of double wall, with not much time left to make my choice.
Does anyone have any answers to my other questions ? please.... |
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PanelCrafters
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Posts:1408
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| 05/20/2009 8:02 AM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/19/2009 8:27 PM
2. I live in very cold climate and worried, I know this is the ICF section of the site, but do you really believe that ICF is the best building practice for the entire house, in and cold climate? Leaps and bounds better than double wall construction and SIPS? Uh, no. Especially not in a cold climate. If the temp does not rise above and sink below the indoor design temp in a 24 hr period, there will be little benefit from the thermal mass(it wasn't that much anyway due to the foam on the interior). Think R-Value and limiting air infiltration. Those are the 2 key issues.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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newbiejohn
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| 05/20/2009 10:49 AM |
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| panelcrafter, i cant tell if your joking around or not... *sigh* |
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jamesmacdonald1
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Posts:70
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| 05/20/2009 11:08 AM |
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Panelcrafter is correct on a number of issues:
1. Thermal mass does only really come into play when you have passive solar gains (i.e south facing window area, etc) along with temperature differences between day and night (diurnal). The more the temperature differences over a 24 hour period, the more thermal mass effects will provide an advantage
2. Thermal mass benefits with most polystyrene ICFs are somewhat mitigated (I am being sensitive to the majority of posters here) by the layer on internal insulation that hinders the energy transfer between the concrete thermal mass and the interior living space.
A system like Durisol (that I personally like) that has the thermal mass in contact with the interior while have the insulation on the exterior side of the concrete core will maximize the thermal mass effects that occur (if they occur).
I have been involved in few projects where the owner/designer were weighing the pros and cons between ICF and SIPs and the following is the ultimate decision they came to:
1. If the only decision making factor is energy efficiency, then SIPS seems to make the most sense and give the most "bang" for your "buck".
2. As soon as you start to place value on other factors such as sound protection, fire protection, increased strength/durability, then SIPs will probably move lower on your preference and ICFs will come to the top of the list. Then in my opinion, from a performance perspective (i.e for the final homeowner not the builder), systems like Durisol should become one of the top contenders. This is because in addition to the advantages listed above, you get correctly positioned insulation in relation to the structure/themal mass, a wall with hygric mass (vapour permeable not air permeable), additional environmental benefits from recycled content, more impact resitant, etc.
3. As soon as you place value on other |
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jamesmacdonald1
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| 05/20/2009 11:09 AM |
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| Forget my number 3. - I included it in my item 2. Sorry for not seeing the typo before I posted. |
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PanelCrafters
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| 05/20/2009 11:09 AM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/20/2009 10:49 AM
panelcrafter, i cant tell if your joking around or not... *sigh*
No, I wasn't joking around. Those are the facts. They have been stated in other posts also.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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newbiejohn
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Posts:141
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| 05/20/2009 12:11 PM |
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Ok let me try and steer this conversation in a different direction than its going....
Lets toss our money as an object
Lets toss SIP panels out of this conversation as I have no interest right now in sips.
Point blank....
Is ICF (TF VERTICLES) a much better way to build my home in a SUPER COLD CLIMATE than superinsulating with a double wall. Remember lets leave money out of the topic.
Energy efficiency is what im referring to, ultimately there is not much of a cooling system but a large heating season.
Im using Triple pane windows from INLINE. Traditional trussed roof (i know this is another new topic all initself.)
You guys are great, thanks |
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newbiejohn
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Posts:141
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| 05/20/2009 12:13 PM |
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Yes lets leave money, labor etc out of the conversation....
All I really right this second concerned about is, is my heating bill and energy efficiency.
Am i making the right choice in REALLY COLD CLIMATE. There is not much for passive solar, i have a total of about 11 windows in the house, standard size limiting as much as possible the windows on the cold sides. |
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Hoowood
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| 05/20/2009 12:44 PM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/20/2009 12:13 PM
All I really right this second concerned about is, is my heating bill and energy efficiency.
Am i making the right choice in REALLY COLD CLIMATE. There is not much for passive solar, i have a total of about 11 windows in the house, standard size limiting as much as possible the windows on the cold sides.
Newbie you are totally right, when cold is the issue you should have the best blocks for YOUR home. I can offer
Insulation: U=0.10 W/m2K - the 17''block right on the pic
Triple pane windows
Vario Passive: U-Value of 0,77 W/ m² K
and airing from the european Leader look the pic´s and tell me if there is something else I can do. pm
Hoowood |
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tb1472000
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| 05/20/2009 1:38 PM |
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Insulation and air tightness are the two things you really want. ICF walls are easier to make airtight than the double wall in my opinion. Of course, you still have the air tightness of the roof structure to contend with either way.
If using standard ICF only, the double wall method probably provides more insulation. Even if you make it as air tight as ICF, you can still have moisture issues in the wall that will defeat the purpose of the insulation. You probably don't have termites to deal with, but you probably have mold and rot issues from water damage. While these may be small or nonexistent issues if built properly, they are issues that gives ICF the advantage in my book.
You can always add more foam insulation to the ICF walls if money is no object. This would be the most durable and energy efficient house.
You're going to have wider than normal walls with either build, so that probably isn't a concern. |
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Alton
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| 05/20/2009 1:56 PM |
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I may be mistaken but I think that almost all of the insulation should be on the outside of the structure when building in very cold areas. Ideally, the dew point should be in the exterior plastic insulation instead of in the middle of the wall. So if you use ICF blocks, go for the extra thick insulation on the exterior.
I also think that Hardi plank/board will do better if it is installed over a rainscreen. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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dmaceld
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| 05/20/2009 7:43 PM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/19/2009 8:27 PM
6. Also, are there issues with siding the home with Hardi Plank or Vinyl ?
Hardiplank is heavy enough you really need two people to hang it. From my observations vinyl does not keep it's color very good, it fades under sunlight. Of course, some paint will also but it's easier to get a durable new paint layer onto previously painted Hardi than to vinyl, I believe.
I don't get very much agreement here on the forum but I found that hanging Hardi by blind nailing on every web with spiral siding nails with a siding nailer holds up the Hardi quite nicely. I used Buildblock which has an extra heavy web section every 8" vertically and 8" exposure Hardi. I nailed into the reinforced areas. I don't know what the other brands of blocks have that is similar but I would be a little bit hesitant to rely on nails that only go into a plain single thickness web.
If you use Hardi consider getting a set of Hardiplank gauges made by Pacific Tools. They're not very costly and work great in helping you hold the plank in place while fastening it and in assuring a consistent exposure height. The guys who actually hung the siding for me loved them. Pac Tools also makes a Hardi shear that worked great for cutting the planks. Here again, opinions vary. Some guys swear by a Hardi blade in a circular saw. A grit edge tile blade in a jig saw worked super to cut circles and curves. A masonry drill bit works to make a starter hole.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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dmaceld
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| 05/20/2009 7:56 PM |
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Posted By newbiejohn on 05/20/2009 12:11 PM
Is ICF (TF VERTICLES) a much better way to build my home in a SUPER COLD CLIMATE than superinsulating with a double wall.
Out of curiosity what cold climate are you in? How many HDDs, 7000, 9000, more, less? Not that that makes a lot of difference in the answer above 45 or 50° North latitude. It's just that not very many posters here live in a super cold climate. I live in SW Idaho with about 6400 HDD. I don't consider that super cold by any means since we seldom hit 0F or colder in the winter.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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tdbuilder
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| 05/20/2009 8:48 PM |
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ICF all the way. The air tight walls with a heavily insulated roof system will work fantastic for you. I have never had a customer say that they wished they would no have used ICF.
If you are looking for extra insulation TF offers thicker panel on one side or on both sides. I had a home a couple of years ago that I had 4" on the exterior and 2 1/2 on the interior. They will make what ever you want.
I am glad to see the block systems are now offering this. This is something that was missing from there product selection years ago when I used mostly block systems. |
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newbiejohn
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Posts:141
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| 05/21/2009 8:08 AM |
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Heating degree days are roughly 9000, im unsure exactly what that number means but anyway..
My builder is leaving it up to me to decide between TF verticles and ARXX blocks. He believes that even tho the TF's are more expensive that he can make up the difference in labor costs over the ARXX.
And it seems that putting 2" of foam insulation on the exterior is cheaper than buying the block thicker on the outside.
That would effectively give me 4.5'' on the outside and 2.5 on the interior.
I have yet to hear convincing words that ICF is a solid choice for very cold climates. I read stories here on this site of a guy who built with ICF that didnt see any savings? I read stories online that say ICF is better in mild climates where the outside temps are milder at least a portion of time during the day. Its not unusual for us to be -40 with the wind chill for days on end in the winter. |
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tdbuilder
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| 05/21/2009 8:30 AM |
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John,
I will PM you a file with a good study done on the different building methods and there energy savings. In cold weather ICF flat panel did fair the best. It compared wood frame, steel frame, AAC, CMU, ICF flat panel, ICF waffle grid, SIPS, and cast in place. In Vancouver BC Flat panel ICF did the best with 19% energy savings. It is a huge file so I will not post it, but please keep in mind as you read it that they are numbers and can be manipulated like any study can be. You will also have to look at the other benefits of ICF, such as the low noise transmission, and its storm impervious. I believe that you are making a wise choice by letting your builder work with what he is most comfortable with. I would have your builder call TF for new pricing, I just order another home from them and was very surprised the price per square foot went down from last year. Which was a complaint I had with them but now they are the same price and (IMO) assembles faster.
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newbiejohn
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Posts:141
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| 05/21/2009 9:49 AM |
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He did recently talk to TF, they are still more expensive than a traditional block from what ive seen anyhow.
I guess my main concern now is choosing between TF and ARXX. |
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