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CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:61
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| 03/04/2008 3:29 PM |
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ok so i went a little over board. LOL
but there is less expiencive ways to get past the finish line and end up with a much strong and tighter window and door envelope.
we will still use the product if they insist and cant see the light.
there does that sound better making it all sugar coated. |
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dbollermann
Registered Users
Posts:8
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| 03/04/2008 5:24 PM |
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Oops. Sorry. Now I feel bad. My mistake.
Damian |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 03/05/2008 12:25 AM |
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Bill;
V-buck is a viable option, so are a dozen other methods
I used it for 2 years straight and did not find any savings in it, I found a use by recycling my footing boards and purchasing plywood as I did originially when I started ICF work
The biggest complaint I had was when I was done I was always returning to the job to 'help' the carpenters who did the roof, install the windows because they did not know how to deal with it and every job it fell back on me since I spec'd and install the V-buck. Most windows in California ICF projects (That I do) are set in which requires a band of 2x material to be run around the buck. Carpenters would try to secure to the first layer of plastic and it would not be strong enough and the wood could be easily pulled out they would then try to go further and hit concrete which led to me getting calls and having to return the job (gratis of course) to show guys how to use Tapcons because they were complaining that I made it harder and they weren't getting paid enough to deal with it....etc, etc, etc. I end up doing someone elses job for free, so back to the old method and no issues since then.
I did try the spline piece to give framers solid material to screw to, but they still striped screws (damn impact screw guns) and the price put the product over the top which most people were not willing to pay for.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:246
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| 03/05/2008 8:38 AM |
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Alright Chris now that is good information.
I could not agree more that it does take educating the installer as I stated above the factory people in most products do a poor job of training, and I could not agree more when you say damn screw guns as most put them on high and giver all shes got captain.
We had the same problems here prior to training our drywallers and our electricians. Most of the dry wall guys wanted to have there guns set wide open and as the foam will give slightly they where running the screws in to far and when the foam regained its memory it would suck the screws throgh the drywall. Our electricians where clue less when it came to running the cables and cutting in the box's so once again we had to show them the correct way to do it. Once these proffesions had been trained they found that they could do the job much faster and much better than what they could do stick frame.
The V-buck was the same way the first time our crew used the product was a disater. We now set up in the shop with two of the crew and have them work together to cut all of the bucks (radial arm saw works best for this) They set them aside in a group for each individual opening. Once that is complete they have everything available that they need, the connectors,corner braces, and the permanent marker so they are numbered for where they belong on the home. They then assemble the bucks ready to be placed. This is all done in a production type set up just like we do in our plant when we make parts that need assembly for Case International tractor company, the key is to eliminate the wasted steps when ever possible this stands true for manufactureing as well as building.
When it comes to bracing on site this too can be reduced, on our verticals we use plumbers tape every 16" for those who do not know what that is (this is a metal 3/4" wide strip with holes in it that plumbers use to hange conduit). The tape is wraped around the buck and screwed to the ties on both sides of the form usually two ties away from the opening. For our horizontals we place 2X material from the top of the buck to the bottom of the buck aprox 18" apart for large openings and one in the center for smaller openings. Our fill holes are cut where ever space is available, we make an oblong hole so we can see the mud as well as do a good job of consolidating. Bring the mud to the bottom of the v-buck and replace the cuttout good old duck tape works best to hold that in place for the rest of the pour.
When complete remove the duct tape and the rest of the bracing save all of this as these items are a tool to be used over and over until they wear out.
When installing windows even recessed attach the framing with the correct screw tension and use some structural adhesive on them. For trim install we use our finish nailer on the extension jamb as well as into the buck material, it is rare to hang stuff from the trim so there is no load bearing and the finish nails will do a good job of holding the trim inplace. |
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CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:61
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| 03/05/2008 1:09 PM |
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lots of bracing. lots of extra work. so extra cost for the builder and for the home buyer.
so not only does the product cost more.
oh ya did i mention that this product aslo does not meet florida wind load requirements!
for those that use it. great for u. bad for the end users.
glad you found a way to make a bad product "work" for you.
example: VV
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Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:246
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| 03/05/2008 5:26 PM |
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Thats a crap load more bracing then we ever do. Once again learn the best methods from folks on the ICF web.
Found it very interesting that the statment was made that v-buck does not meet Florida wind load code here is the Florida code approval # FL5428 |
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CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:61
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| 03/06/2008 8:50 AM |
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its approved to be used. but it does not meet the wind loads.
its needless fluff your selling. you know it. i know it, and im sure several others on here know it.
its like the car dealer that sells extra under coatings. even though they know the car is allready factory coated.
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Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:246
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| 03/06/2008 9:48 AM |
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| Once again it is to bad you feel the need to condem something because you do not know how to use it!!!!!!!! |
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CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:61
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| 03/06/2008 10:06 AM |
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| oh our crews know how. its still overpriced, needless fluff. |
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RAP-BIG-ICP1
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 05/12/2008 10:46 PM |
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Posted By CFL-ICF on 03/06/2008 8:50 AM its approved to be used. but it does not meet the wind loads.
its needless fluff your selling. you know it. i know it, and im sure several others on here know it.
its like the car dealer that sells extra under coatings. even though they know the car is allready factory coated.
If it specs out to meet code, isn't the wind load part of what's calculated in the spec for code? I'm not trying to be a jackass, I just don't know.
Thanks.
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Swift Cricket
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 05/19/2008 5:55 PM |
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RAP-BIG-ICP1 VBUCK does meet Florida code.
Go to their website www.vbuck.com and click on "links". Find the Florida Code link to find out the details. The testing and photos are included on the FL Code site.
I just takes a little planning, but with a CPVC insert, it does meet code.
I hope that helps. |
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 05/19/2008 7:15 PM |
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| Hey Bill, I was thinking, you know from my other post that I prefer wood for my bucks. But I remember a company in Bakersfield, Ca that I helped out called ICW where their webs would protrude an 1/8 inch from both faces of the block ( I think from what I heard that this is also how nudura works ). It is a web that you slide into the two foam panels, separating those panels by your desired concrete thickness. I thought that would might work well with v-buck since it also protrudes 1/8 of an inch from the face of the block. So anyway, just wanted to say something positive about it, and maybe something you might not have seen yet. I do appreciate your experience and your voice here. I also appreciate all the guys on this site that have the heart to share what they've been through or are going through in a way that is helping promote this industry and teaching others better building practices. |
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 05/19/2008 7:22 PM |
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| I think on my last post i got nudura and quad lock mixed up, probably the only two blocks (besides fox) that I have not dealt with yet. |
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Geoff Mees
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 06/02/2008 4:43 PM |
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Last year we introduced a new option to the ICF industry called JAMB-it-ALL. We have had great response and success with our products to date accross the nation. We build your bucking in our factory and ship them to your jobsite tagged and ready to install. On our website we have many job pics posted and many more to post. Geoff
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