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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:182
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| 05/09/2008 7:25 PM |
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Certainly there is misinformation surrounding ICF pricing and value.
Square footage pricing usually does not include the basics, like footings, perimeter and underfloor drainage systems, sump wells,"air gap"
membranes, acrylic parging, specialty anchors, etc.
I find the Home Show Reps to be the most notorious of story tellers, almost up there with Lawyers. LOL
Not many are experienced installers with multiples under their belts, but they are" sales" oriented. That's just the way it is.
It is a fact that ICF's are more expensive to build with than wood , ask any ICF Contractor...we deal in the "real world" and often have to
bring "Home Show Victims" , back down to earth.
Are ICF's better than wood ? Depends on your perspective, ...........Is a BMW the same as a Chevy ?
Leave it to a chest thumper to denegrigate Tradesmen as having "less value" as people :-(
Do Lawyers overcharge ?
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Intrigue
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 05/09/2008 8:00 PM |
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Is a BMW same as a Chevy? I assume the implication is that 2x6 walls are the chevy and the ICFs are the BMW.
How about this analogy being a bit more accurate. 2x6 framing as the chevy and ICFs as a Pontiac priced like a BMW. (BMWs are over-rated anyway).
The only point that I am trying to make is that I can see some benefits to ICF walls. BUT, I don't see the benefits that are worth paying such a HUGE premium price. Maybe a premium of 15-20% of the stick cost, but when the price differential is that large, I really would expect a lot more value.
Somehow, I don't think I am alone in this line of thinking. The simple fact that the Home Show reps tend to over-exaggerate the ICF features & benefits leads me to believe that ICFs are an industry that is really struggling to justify their price point.
It's not just ICF that I have a bit of a problem in terms of labour price gouging but this isn't really the forum to discuss other isuues. (But can anyone say hardwood flooring installers).
Take all the shots on lawyers that you want.....I don't mind and I luv lawyer jokes. Sure I charge $400/hr (of which I net $150/hour). But I get paid the buck because I provide a high degree of value......I win my cases and generate $millions for my clients.
Pricing on anything (goods & services) has to be always related to value. I just don't think the ICF industry has explained the value of their product to the point of justifying the high cost.
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olegy
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 05/09/2008 8:24 PM |
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ICF does have benefits - high fire resistance ratings (especially blocks like Rastra and performwall). My stick house got burned. I don't want to repeat such an experience.
I know, it takes more than just the walls to be fireproof , however walls are the main part of it.
Read the thread carefully, you'll see a claim of $15/sq. ft to break even (without labor cost) - just for materials. That is total bullshit. Unless they erecting a one block wall.
The cost of materials is about the same coast to coast. How people in Midwest can build for around $10/sq. ft. and make profits? Housing prices, market prices are driving it.
Nobody will build a new house, if it will cost twice as much, then a existing one. Labor cost? It is not that different form coast to coast as well.
Most of the builders are still living in year 2005 virtual reality, when they were able to dictate prices and chose clients.
Most of material prices are down - concrete, lumber, drywall. They are still trying to charge $20-$25(!) /sq.ft in San Diego to make their super profits.
However, I don't mind, if they can still find people willing to pay that price - so be it.
But amount of new building permits issued here are virtually zero (except fire victims) - want to get a customer - slash the price in half - still get a moderate profit. |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:182
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| 05/09/2008 8:36 PM |
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I'll make the analogy simpler for you then.
The second "little pig" built his house of sticks.
The third "little pig" saw value and survived.
To each his own, if you had more experience in construction as a builder your views might have credibility...
but your are trained in another profession :-)
I would not dream of claiming expertise in your profession, for the same reason.
Olegy, I can see where an "intelligent contractor" would prefer not to deal with you, and rather than insult your intelligence,
quote you so high, as to never win your work ! |
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RAP-BIG-ICP1
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 05/09/2008 10:26 PM |
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Well, as my post count indicates, I'm new to the forum. Very new!
Anyway, I just received a preliminary bid for ICF for a 3 car garage with 1/2 bath with a 2 bedroom 1 bath apartment above. The structure is going to be a very simple 40' X 27' rectangle.
My quote (South Florida) was about $20K for all materials for footer, slab, and walls (V-Buck, re-bar, ICF blocks, concrete, pump truck, boom truck, etc... absolutely everything except bracing and labor).
I then spoke with an "installer" who said a basic rule of thumb for him was $4.00 sq/ft of wall area - and that was just for the walls (not footer or slab). Making the labor another $10K give or take.
Considering my location - Hurricanes, and climate, I'm 99% sure that I'll be going with ICF. I haven't even looked @ stick or conventional block pricing - ICF is within my budget (just barely), and I plan on doing quite a bit of the $10K labor job myself.
Just another data point.
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robinnc
Registered Users
Posts:83
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| 05/10/2008 12:42 AM |
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Intrigue........I don't think the folks who live in multi million dollar houses are 'subs'.....They are probably GC's. And charging 400 bucks an hour is insane!!.....That's over 800 grand a year!!!!!!! I think you made your tuition back in about 2 1/2 months work!!!!!
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GRickard
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 05/10/2008 7:47 AM |
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Intrigue,
I'll start by letting you know that I'm not associated with any of the ICF related companies. I have however worked in industrial constuction for 17+ years.
Obviously ICF is not going to be the best fit for every persons needs, but for some of us it is well worth a little extra overall cost. I'm not sure you're taking all of the advantages into account.
I am in the finishing stages of my 2400 sq. ft. (main floor) house. My goethermal cost $13k. If I had stick built this house the unit would have been much larger and would have been over $20k. So there is around $7k of the extra cost already. Keep in mind the smaller unit will use less energy every month over it's lifetime and will continue this part of the payback. Even though it may be small and slow, there is some payback there.
Also, You may check with your homeowners insurance company to see if there are lower rates for ICF based on fire resistance and structural integrity.
As long as we're doing comparisons, I feel that a better analogy to use would be comparing ICF to 2x6 walls is more like comparing a gas furnace to geothermal. Both will do the job they are intended for, but ICF will do it more efficiently.
As I finish my house, I have had several people ask how I liked using the ICFs (there aren't many built in this area yet) and I always say "I don't see a reason to use anything else". I live in tornado alley and have Kentucky's climate, so all of the benifits outweigh the extra cost for me.
I hope whatever method you choose works out well for you.
Greg
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Intrigue
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 05/10/2008 8:56 AM |
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Just let me clarify one last time.
I am not a builder, nor do I pretend to be. But, I am a CONSUMER, and the buying decisions I make are always based on the 'value' of goods & services in relation to the features & benefits and the cost analysis of that particular product.
We will be building a 3000sqft home. Actually it's downsizing from the current 8,000+ sqft because we are empty-nesters and I'll be retiring next year (age 56). I can well afford any house I want (with no mortgage) so the new home will be a high-end home with all the expensive cosmetic features (my wife's responsibility).
Having said that I can afford it, doesn't mean that I want to pay a huge premium for something that I don't perceive as having sufficient value to justify the cost. There are many reasons that people have for buying any product or service and each Consumer will make that individual choice. What, I am also saying is that from what I've read (and spoken to people in the industry) is that I've not seem enough 'value' in the decison to build with ICFs to justify the cost. That's my own personal view and somehow I suspect I'm not alone.
The goal in posting here was to stir up the pot a bit. What I was hoping for was to see some ICF experts post about why my value decision should be postive. Things like data analysis, side-by-side comparisons, really anything factual (and not just anecdotal) to justify the premium pricing. What seems to happen, is that as soon as anyone questions the value of ICFs, then builders tend to jump on it and take personal potshots. Is that really a method to 'sell' a product. Damn unprofessional, if you ask me!
Quote:I can see where an "intelligent contractor" would prefer not to deal with you, and rather than insult your intelligence,
quote you so high, as to never win your work !
That's what I'm talking about. If anyone is going to pay big-bucks for a house, I think the consumer has a right and obligation to question what goes into the house. Who's money is being spent.....the consumers, of course. Any builder who only wants dumb-ass clients is not a builder I want to deal with. I want to be 'sold'. My name isn't Mr. Sheep!
Here's an example. Heating costs are a major concern in my area. Being that the house will be country lakefront. There will be no natural gas supply. Energy costs are rising. I can see the value in Geothermal heating. I can look at data, I can analyze the cost/benefit by considering the expenditure of premium pricing versus investing the premium dollars and paying the added heating costs that way. I can do all that, I can mak the decision that Geothermal is viable.
Nobody has been able to do that for ICFs. Not here, not at Tradeshows, not anywhere. I wish someone would, because I really don't mind spending a premium price for a value-added product, as long as the value justifys the cost. |
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RAP-BIG-ICP1
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 05/10/2008 9:46 AM |
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Posted By Intrigue on 05/10/2008 8:56 AM
Just let me clarify one last time...
Nobody has been able to do that for ICFs. Not here, not at Tradeshows, not anywhere. I wish someone would, because I really don't mind spending a premium price for a value-added product, as long as the value justifys the cost.
For me, stick building is simply not an option. Too many issue with Termites, and too many structural considerations and adjustments have to be made to pass hurricane code guidelines.
So the only "conventional" option is standard concrete block. I have not actually quoted materials and labor on a 20 foot tall, 40' X 27' building made of block, but I can't imagine footer, slab, and walls, etc. would be too much less than $30K And with a masonry block home, I am simply not skilled to do any of the block laying myself. With ICF, it may take me a few weeks more time, but I have the ability to lay all of the block myself. There is value in that if you are a DIY'r - you obviously can afford not to be.
Even so, the quote I was given for ICF (~$30K) included materials for the footer and slab, but labor only for the walls.
With ICF I have the increased R-Value (it's rarely below 80 degrees here), as well as more than sufficient hurricane wind rated walls. Dollar for dollar, all things considered, and for my particular area of the country, ICF is nearly a wash.
My current electric bill (stick frame house - built in the 40's with no insulation in the walls) runs in the $250/month range. I expect that will drop to around $80 in the new place. Hell, even if it only drops to $125, that's still a $125/month savings alone. Add insurance savings, less labor time/skill for the actual structure, and the fact that even though not necessarily recommended, I can do a lot of the work myself... Well, there's my justifiable value to cost. YMMV.
*disclaimer - I am a software engineer with no professional "construction" experience or personal bias towards one form of construction or another. I have been a "DIY'r" since I was a teenager helping my dad on projects around the house. One of those "projects" happened to be building a guest house (stick frame) start to finish.
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irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:250
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| 05/10/2008 9:51 AM |
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Intrigue your first post " anyone claiming 3-10% is grossly misleading" is inflamatory and incorrect, maybe this was a prerequisite for responses you didn't like. For instance, we build cheaper -and better- than stick in our area....
And $3500.00 to frame a home and install windows and doors? Really? People ask me what the cost upgrade from ICF to stick is, I tell them too get QUALIFIED quotes, not bubblegum rapper pencil notes to compare.
Independent data shows what are the benefits of ICF. If your choice is for everyone to lay them on the table for you again, you are wasting everyones time. You are correct in being frustrated with salesmen and hype. Only you can decide where your money should be spent. ICF is simply the best option. So evaluate it as such, an option, a very important option most GC's don't offer.
Many of us do not appreciate workinig for lawyers, the smarter people think they are, the harder the tend to be to deal with. This may not apply to you, but you may end up in the category by default..... can you say "God Complex...."
Remember:
1/ Tract home builders builld their own homes with ICF and love them, but don't offer them as an option, Why? Contact the Thienemans in S. Indiana. 400 homes a year, all toothpicks, but the big boys who own the company all live in ICF!
2/Can't seem to find a business or homeowner who utilizes an ICF structure who would ever go back to stick. Why?
3/Doesn't non combustile, no rot construction have a cost upgrade associated? But no, at retirement age, it's all too often about "what can I get with my fistful of money," instead of "what can I give back....."
My name is Kevin, I live in an ICF home. and we love it. Love for instance, not having to straighten pictures on the exterior walls after a storm, like we did in out 2 by 6 past homes.....That's money, convenience in the bank for me, baby. |
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Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Posts:235
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| 05/10/2008 10:07 AM |
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In the late 1990's The National Association of Home Builders performed a field study in Regards to this very question. They built three identical homes on side by side lots in Maryland, they are involved in all types of construction so I believe they are unbiased with the results of a study.
In the study they found 20% more energy efficient for the ICF structures, the temp variance per hour for the ICF 1-2% and 4% + for the wood structure.
They used the same tonage heating system which will actually lower efficiency in an ICF and yet the ICF was 20% less energy cost.
The cost to build these homes ICF vs. Stick was $3000 higher, for many years ICF where the top of the line and probably still are to this day. The unfortunate part is the contractor was able to charge a premium for the product partly because it was such a new technology and they had poor training both on the sales side and the building side. That should be over but some still hang onto the idea that they can charge more because it is a Cadillac and not an Impala, and that is to bad.
In our area that is also evident, so we have taken the time to educate our contractors in all avenues of construction, traing the electrician, plumbers, heating and cooling and the other services how to work with ICF. Our subs now charge less for there installs than they do for wood frame, our builders are generally with in $300 on the bids as well as the completion cost of the project, we even have several that will not build stick one of them owns a lumberyard.
The study is available through the Portland Cement Association titled Concrete homes vs. Wood frame. There have been several other studies performed by Larger construction firms as well as by Dr. Peter Vanderwerf a well regarded ICF expert, those studies are part of an article published in ICF Builder magazines April/May issue, I am not sure if you can pull that issue up on the internet, here is the web site www.icfmag.com
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:182
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| 05/10/2008 3:26 PM |
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Mr Intrigue Lawyer Guy :
You are full of it. Thanks for the out of context quote :-)
To be blunt, some customers are true PIA's, such as Olegy and perhaps yourself, so the logical thing to do,
would be to decline your work, or quote you so high $$ that you take your baggage elsewhere.
In your specific case, that would be my recommendation. :-)
You can shift gears fine, but the fact is, you have insulted us all , with your inflated ego and chest thumping.
It is OK for you to charge $400 per hour ( over 2 weeks is $32K )
but it becomes "Price Gouging" when a crew of 4 bills out $12K for 2 solid weeks.
You Sir......................... are the "Chief Price Gouger !"
I guess we'all just fell off the apple cart. LOL
If you had addressed your inquiry to specifics, you may have had a more civil reception here.
As to energy performance characteristics of ICF's, you might buy a copy of PCA's heat loss program for ICF's
It may take a brain to run it, but with your "10 years of University" that should not be a problem.
Or preferably, why don't you pay a Heating Contractor, by the minute, to do it for you.
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Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:93
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| 05/11/2008 1:48 AM |
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What an opportunity to whack a lawyer! However, I'll not jump on the bandwagon and offer the following. I'm a retired AF engineer (may not be in your financial league) and my wife and I will be building a 3000SF dream home (same as you) this year. Our home is also sited in the country (160 acres) and will overlook a good sized pond. I'm 55 (retired a bit earlier than you) so I'd say you and I should have a good 25-45 years left in us. My wife and I expect our home, structure and systems, to serve us well for the duration and beyond for others. I would assume you would too.
So, why would we want to build a permanent structure with a temporary construction material called wood?
Should mention we live in Kansas, land of Oz and tornados, therefore safety for my family is a key factor . Energy efficiency, fire resistance, termite resistance, sound attenuation, and security are further enhancements. Living in Europe for 11 years exposed us to longer lasting construction materials like concrete, block, brick, stone, marble and the secure feeling associated with a "rock solid" home where the floors didn't squeak and the house didn't shake. Must be a reason the only 1000 year old homes we saw were made with these materials!
You're looking for "value" in using ICF over stick. I'd encourage you to consider the quality of life in the "castle" of your dreams that incorporates the features mentioned. I believe peace of mind should be a goal! Might be subjective to some, but for me and my family it's quite tangible. |
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 05/11/2008 1:27 PM |
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| Intrigue, I think an elaboration is needed on how you managed to receive a price of what, $6300 to frame a 220 LF perimeter structure in 2x6, with 2" foamboard (plus CDX), insulation, etc. Is that an actual quote? That price to me seems ridiculously low, while your ICF numbers seem a bit high. |
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Intrigue
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 05/11/2008 9:25 PM |
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Yes, the price quote for the exterior walls is an actual quote. Obviously, it's only a portion of an itemized quote, the portion for framing the exteror walls only which is the only relevent portion to this discussion.. The total framing quote includes joists, floors, interior walls, trusses, roof sheating, stairs, outdoor decking, etc, etc. The exterior walls are only a small portion of the total framers quotation. It is only one quote that I have right now. The project hasn't been opened to competing bids yet till we make some final decisions. Generally, I'm finding that the rough carpentry costs are rathur inexpensive when compared to the labour & material costs of other items in the build.....e.g costs for things like septic, HVAC, electrical, plumbing, cabinetry, trim and finish is pretty expensive stuff.
I don't have an actual quote for ICF. All I'm doing is calculating the sgft of the EXTERIOR walls (not including the walkout basement) and multiplying by the pricing that has already indicated by the sub-contractors. According to these same sub-contractors, $13-15 per sqft of wall is representative of the ICF industry.
Of course, the other alternative is SIP, but I haven't really looked into that in any great detail so I have no idea what the actual cost of SIPs would be. My GC is currently contacting a couple of SIP subs to see what that works out (basement walls, exterior walls, roof)
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robinnc
Registered Users
Posts:83
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| 05/11/2008 11:45 PM |
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Intrigue
Find out what the framers will charge you for a stick built house...usually by s/f under roof. Also get a framers quote on framing out an ICF house.....one with EXP. Here framing would run approx. a buck less per s/f for ICF. Also don't forget ICF has all of the insulation for all sides of the house, you'll only need to insul. crawl space and attic(Alot less insul. and labor) Get a quote on the lumber package for both(ICF will be less than stick) Find out from your HVAC the calcs for a stick built vs ICF(lower tons...thousands of bucks less than stick.. and lower monthly payments for life for ICF)......Make a list.....some for each will be less/more......balance out at the bottom. You just can't compare using ONLY the exterior wall prices!! Also a car will NEVER come thru your living room........:)
ICF experts......I'm sure I probably left something off this list...
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aronmac
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 05/12/2008 9:58 AM |
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| Rob, I would'nt call myself an icf expert, but I think you answered the critics well and in a respectful manner. |
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| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
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