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TLC-ICF
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| 02/21/2009 8:12 PM |
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| From my experience, the only ones that use superior walls are what I call new pickup truck-----------telephone contractors, and novas home owners. Witch know nothing about building. And get sucked in by the used car sales pitch. Superior walls are most of the time a one time shot. Look up failures of superiorwalls on the net. |
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Robmusso1062
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| 02/22/2009 9:12 AM |
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I used the Franchise in NC.
Knowing that with any building system you must investigate before you use any product. And obviously, no system is perfect, but I've been very pleased with my all of my projects with Superior Walls of N.C. and will continue to use them for years to come.
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'Build a Legecy, build with concrete' |
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TB MACS
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| 02/23/2009 9:16 PM |
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SUPERIOR WALLS ARE NO COMPARSION TO ICF WALLS IN MY BOOK. YES I SEEN PLENTY OF THEM. HERE IN NC , WE COMPETE AGAINST THEM EVERYDAY.AS FAR AS THE BELOW GRADE WALLS THEY CAN ONLY HAVE NO MORE OF 8' OF BACKFILL.ALSO THE WALLS ARE ONLY 2 1/2" THICK AT ANY POINT.UNLIKE ICF,THE MINUIM WALL WE CAN PUT BELOW GRADE IS 6" CORE.BUT MY FAVORITE ISSUE IS THE SALES PITCH WE CAN INSTALL IT IN 4 HRS.THE TRUTH IS THEY HAVE A 30 TO 4O DAY TURN AROUND FROM THE TIME YOU ORDER, THEY MAKE THE PANELS AT THE PLANT, THEY MUST CURE BEFORE TRANSPORT AND SETTING WITH A CRANE.IT TAKES MY CREWS NO MORE THAN 7 DAYS TO DO FOOTINGS AND WALLS ON A TYPICAIL 2500-3000 SG/FT ICF BASEMENT.ALOT OF HOMES WE DO THEY CAN'T BECAUSE OF DOOR AND WINDOW LINTEL ISSUES.MOST OF THE TIME THEY ONLY BEAT US ON THE PRICE OF THE FOOTINGS.SO ITS LIKE CARS YOU CAN HAVE A PINTO OR A CORVETTE, ITS UP TO YOU.
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STACKING THE CAROLINAS ONE BLOCK AT A TIME
TODD BIGGERSTAFF / TBMACS ICF CONTRACTOR
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Brawler
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| 02/23/2009 10:05 PM |
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| Todd, i think you are the first ICF builder to state that ICF is more costly than ICF. I think Icfs are awesome from what i have read, but i have no first hand exp with them. My superior walls are 7 inch thick at every beam, and 1 3/8 thick between, All factory cured 4000 psi concrete. I sought superior walls out, it wasn't some "Hi powered sales pitch". I planned ahead and ordered my walls a whole month before i needed them. The day the were placed i could have built on top of them. They could have been placed in the rain or in the cold. Can you build on top of ICF wall the same day you pour the walls. If so thats cool. If not i could be excavating while you were pouring walls and still have a green plate ready for framing before you. I would agree that in this way there is no comparison. |
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miformguy
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| 02/24/2009 6:36 PM |
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Brawler,
I have to add my two cents worth. Unless there is more to the structure that I can't see, we could have excavated your job in the morning and had the footings poured that afternoon. We would start stacking blocks the next morning. We would pour the walls that afternoon. I would prefer you not to start building that day but since its only day 2 in the afternoon it shouldn't be a problem. There is probably not a big difference in the price but superior walls have one huge disadvantage....last minute changes. We have on several occasions made floor plan changes, even gone from basement to crawlspace after excavating. That has happened a couple of times. What do you do with the walls that have already been built and paid for? A built on site system has the ability to change and we are faster hands down. |
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Brawler
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| 02/24/2009 8:03 PM |
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| Thats all the first floor, 20 by 28 exterior. Downsizing and getting by with less space was probably the "greenest" thing we have done yet.I just assumed you had to wait for the concrete to cure in the ICF before you could build upon it. Theses walls are the first of three floors. The day the walls were set we could have poured our slab, next day set floor trusses and backfill and keep going up. I am building in my spare time so its going slow leaving lots of time for planning. I am going to use Sips for the next 2 levels, Total 33 feet to the ridge. Change orders cost time and money for sure. How long after the pour would i have had to wait to set the rest of my structure with ICF. Thanks |
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TLC-ICF
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| 02/24/2009 9:32 PM |
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The next day.
There in no comparison in a 1" superior wall with no steel to an 8" steel reinforced structural concrete wall in an ICF.
An icf foundation would be much faster, from start to finish. |
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lkazanov2
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| 02/25/2009 12:07 AM |
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Brawler,
I am happy that you are happy. A friend of mine has a superior wall basement and he is happy. And in today's construction market I am glad that you were able to start the home of your dreams. We are not so fortunate. We looked and actually priced superior walls. One thing I don't think was mentioned is the complexity of the design. When we priced our foundation with 50 corners the cost was quite comparable to an ICF poured and installed. I think the more complex the footprint the more competitive ICF's become. If it is a very simple square footprint then cost wise Superior walls are much cheaper. |
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TB MACS
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| 02/25/2009 8:37 AM |
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lkazanov2
I agree with last statement,most house we compete against superior walls are plane boxes or just basement walls, like I sayed we are always neck and neck, except on the footings. But if you compare what you are getting, icf is the better choice hands down. Most of our clients are home owners , buiders, that want icf not only for the basement walls, but first and second floor walls also.They already know the advantages , and incorporate icf for the whole project structure, not just basement walls.
BRAWLER, from the picture this is a very simple project, we could have completed the whole basement in a matter of days with a thre man crew..The footings/ inspection 2 days, walls stacked and poured 3 days,thats week #1. the following week waterproofers and slab prep 1 day, basement slab 1 day, thats 7 days total if evey thing goes on track.Were ready to start framing.So if we got the go ahead at the same time as superior walls, you would still be waiting! My framing crews would have you in the dry in a months time.I'm not trying to down you for your thoughts , I'm glad that you are building your dream home.Orangized crews and subs make the difference for any job.
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STACKING THE CAROLINAS ONE BLOCK AT A TIME
TODD BIGGERSTAFF/ TB MACS ICF CONTRACTOR
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Brawler
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| 02/25/2009 2:48 PM |
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| Ikazonov, Thanks, and i am very lucky i got my financing before this all came to a head. I designed this house to be as efficient and as green as i knew how. A big part of that was to minimize the use of lumber and concrete. ICF contractors My walls were designed by an engineer to use enough concrete and steel for the job. I am backfilling only to 6 feet and only for a part of the wall. Time was not a issue, I was able to use my skid and dump to prep the site, I am within 45 miles of the factory, I am leaving the exterior broom finish on the superior walls and simply painting them which will save $ and give us the look we want. The superior walls crew was on site less than 4 hours which my neighbors appreciated , I have gotten swift responses to every question, even after they had my money and have yet to see any horror stories involving SW NC. I used the Sealing agents to waterproof as i would have with any wall. When i see posts from SOME icf contractors that are obvious attempts to distort the truth (lie) i wonder where the rest of the honest contractors are. If i saw someone say something like Superior walls are 15 inch thick and cost less than block I would correct them. Again i have never said anything negative or false about ICF, i think they must be great from all i have heard. When i hear a statment like SW cost twice as much and are 10% the strength of ICF, or SW are 1" thick and no one but me a layman calls BS it makes me question the value of these forums. Ya dont drive nails with a screwdriver, every job has a tool. For my job ICF was not the tool. No fault of ICF. After following this thread i can only conclude that the facts dont matter to Some of the ICF contractors posting here. They will make any claim to slander SW. Show me proof where SW peoduct and not installation was the problem. |
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Robmusso1062
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| 02/25/2009 5:53 PM |
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Bravo ! Mr. BRAWLER
"Well said", my green neighbor. "A wonderful example of someone who writes in a forum that is a positive contributor to our industry."
I was beginning to wonder if we were on the 'Jerry Springer' version of green products.
I thought this was a green educational forum, not an 'ICF's hates Superior Walls' bitch section.
I was my intention of learning and sharing. I'm debating on whether or not this particular forum is worth keeping track of.
Have a Superior Day!
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'Build a Legecy, build with concrete' |
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fturkdal
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| 02/25/2009 6:19 PM |
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Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks,
I use both. Customer gets what they want. But question is, if they were ( SW and ICF) same price are both fre which whould you take.
Frank |
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Robmusso1062
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| 02/25/2009 7:09 PM |
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I know i'm going to regret giving you my answer Frank, but i'll give it to you anyway.
Because I'm a green freak, I'd use SW's. Even if both systems were free. I'm not going to jump on any bragging band wagon, I'm just giving you my personal opinion. To mention just a few reasons, Superior Walls uses less of our earths raw materials. Water & portland. And I'm quite sure I don't have to tell you how much energy it takes to manufacture raw portland. And there's no doubt you like water as much as I do.
Like you said, Folks can use what ever makes you happy. Like you, I know for a fact that all the foundation systems work. I've used everyone of them for the past 30 years.
It's basically all about how good you manage your projects.
Bottom line: education, preparation, and prayer are the keys to any successful building project. I say that with all humility and honesty.
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'Build a Legecy, build with concrete' |
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TLC-ICF
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| 02/28/2009 10:40 PM |
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Posted By Robmusso1062 on 02/25/2009 7:09 PM
I know i'm going to regret giving you my answer Frank, but i'll give it to you anyway.
Because I'm a green freak, I'd use SW's. Even if both systems were free. I'm not going to jump on any bragging band wagon, I'm just giving you my personal opinion. To mention just a few reasons, Superior Walls uses less of our earths raw materials. Water & portland. And I'm quite sure I don't have to tell you how much energy it takes to manufacture raw portland. And there's no doubt you like water as much as I do.
Like you said, Folks can use what ever makes you happy. Like you, I know for a fact that all the foundation systems work. I've used everyone of them for the past 30 years.
It's basically all about how good you manage your projects.
Bottom line: education, preparation, and prayer are the keys to any successful building project. I say that with all humility and honesty.
[/quote]
You look like a cheerleader for superior wall. What is your back ground? You look like a new truck, telephone contractor to me.
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Robmusso1062
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| 03/01/2009 9:42 AM |
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I appreciate the compliment!
I've got enough experience to show my face, whats your excuse?
Bye-the-way, the new truck is feeling good, thanks.
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'Build a Legecy, build with concrete' |
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ibgreen
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| 03/01/2009 9:57 AM |
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You are the sales manager for the NC superior walls operation are you not? Not that there are lots of mis-information here regarding SW, I think you should have disclosed that from the start.
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TLC-ICF
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| 03/01/2009 11:51 AM |
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| This dose not come as much of a surprise. Some are here with a hidden agenda. |
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Robmusso1062
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| 03/01/2009 1:41 PM |
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One of the main reasons that i work with Superior Walls now is because of my many years of experience with block, poured, and icf's. Experience is always the best teacher.
I have no other agenda than to help others understand that all the products work just fine as long as they are used correctly.
So lets not waste anymore time with school kid bickering, and talk green building.
Wasn't that what this forum was originally designed?
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'Build a Legecy, build with concrete' |
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ICFconstruction
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Posts:638
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| 03/03/2009 9:12 PM |
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Actually this forum was started as an ICF forum and diversified into what it is now.
I don't believe in the rock bed instead of a footing. Course rock will let water flow to directly under the slab and I don't believe you can compact the rock enough to prevent settlement.
How would you use Superior walls above grade? |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Brawler
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Posts:127
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| 03/04/2009 11:01 AM |
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| Your belief has nothing to do with the facts. For a picture of above grade SW look at Project album "Lucky cove cottage" Simple stuff. |
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