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fiinished Basement walls
Last Post 23 Jan 2007 10:57 AM by slenzen. 13 Replies.
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 08 Dec 2006 10:57 PM |
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Im looking for any helpful hints or ways to use SIPS in basements. The basement is a 92 inch floor to ceiling concrete floor to be finished with carpet. My idea was to use SIP for the wall. Sheetrock/EPS/OSB. I dont want to make my own panels but we could since we have. I would like to hear different experiences with uses of SIPs in basements.
So that I am clear this is a remodel job to finish a basement walls to be sheetrock.
The idea of framing this in steel or wood make me tired. We are used to using SIP but havent in basements yet....
Please any help....
thanks in advance |
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wes
 Advanced Member
 Posts:810
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| 09 Dec 2006 08:50 AM |
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This is an interesting idea. My one concern is simple: Moisture. Most older basements that I have worked on have had some amount of latent moisture problems. If you intend to put the SIPS hard against the exterior walls to utilize maximum living space, moisture accumulation could poise serious delamination problems with the OSB in a few years. Since I assume that the SIPS will not be structural in nature, consider this. 1. Wrap the exterior masonry walls with visqueen. 2. Install nailbase SIPS (which have OSB on one side only) with the OSB to the interior. This will remove the potential moisture and delamination problems, and provide a solid base for your sheetrock finishes. Don't forget to double plate the sill with an oversized pressure treated 2x. I would use treated lumber for all parts of this wall assembly. Has anyone considered a nailbase panel with sheetrock in lieu of the OSB? |
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| Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected] |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 09 Dec 2006 11:47 AM |
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Thanks for the reply. Mositure is not a problem here. There are OSB/dens-armour panels available. The challenges I see are wiring, installation. You have your plate and top plate installed prior to putting the panels in, and you would have to slide the panels in verse angle them in unless you cut back the osb, which by the way would be spaced 1/2 from concrete walls...if you cut the top of the OSB you dont have the proper nailer at the top,,,,
Still working on this.....
More ideas are welcome |
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mmacgowa
 Basic Member
 Posts:166
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| 10 Dec 2006 07:33 AM |
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Would it be less expensive to stucco the basement? I would guess you are about $4/ft for the dens panels and then you still have to do seams and paint. If you went with stucco, you could just put up foam and cut chases with a chain saw with a stop. Then stucco like normal. I would bet you could do it for $5.50 to $6 which would probably be less with no maintenance. |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 10 Dec 2006 12:16 PM |
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MAC thanks for the response. The specs call for drywall with paint. Over 1250 sf of living area. Stucco is not acceptable in this area of fine homes. I have come up with a self adjusting bracing system for basement walls. My buddy is fabricating them now. I will continue to look for other ideas, I have about 10k sf of basements to finish this winter. The idea of using panels nailbase or SIP will work, I was looking for ideas....... the national average to finish a basement runs $45-75 per sf at $35 per sf , my margins are high enough to keep all my crew working in the dead of winter. Plus we are beating eveyone on price and quality.
I have looked in buying a steel stud machine to create my own panels and not have to wait 3-4 weeks for delivery.
Anyone ever use the studmeister or the anything like it? Studmeister.net |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 19 Dec 2006 09:33 PM |
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Not a lot of feedback on this forum I was hoping for a little more imput, however that forced me to do my own due dillegence and that ended up paying off. I have come up with a panel that saves a lot of time and cost compared to the owens corning or other basement systems. Nice margins also. There are few panel makers that have a OSB/EPS/GYP panel but it needed to be improved on. I would be willing to install this system in the northeast if anyone is interested.
Keep on SIPIN"
Interesting that the national average for finished basements in $40-75 per square foot, we are below that with a higher r-value than anything I could find on the internet, or any other remodleing contractor... |
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engineerbob
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 20 Dec 2006 03:49 PM |
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I just have one question for you here. Why?? Using SIP's to finish a basement is not very cost effective. You say about how much work the framing or furring the basement will be. Compared to what?? Lugging those Panels around in your basement will be alot more labor intensive and also way, way more expensive than just using styrofoam and furring strips that are made to install in this exact installation.
Sip's are a good product in the right applications, and that is definately not one of them.
Just my opinion, but $5 + dollars / sq ft is way, way more than just framing , or furring the walls up. |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 21 Dec 2006 07:40 PM |
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typical engineer response. Im always looking for ways to save time. Labor cost are a big part of construction. Unions or overhead for workmans comp, taxes, etc. Looking at $40 per hour when all is said and done for a laborer. Never mind the cost of real skilled workers. We have a good crews but they are expensive. Ok so you have furred or framed the basement, now what, you have to insulate, you need an r-10 now to meet local codes and Res checks, then you have to hang the sheetrock or what ever. You are well over $5 per square foot. Here is how it breaks down, 3-5 days to frame a basement and insulate with a small crew. 5 hours to install panels... got it now? |
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engineerbob
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 22 Dec 2006 09:03 AM |
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Typical Engineer response. What is that?? If you are already set on using SIP to finish off a basement, and won't listen to reason, go ahead and don't was anybodies time on here. The illusion that using SIP's is automatically going to save a bunch of on-site labor is simply not true. It might save some with an experienced SIP crew, but an experienced framing crew can probably frame as house as fast as an inexperienced SIP crew. I for one would not want to use OSB next to a concrete surface, so if you have to go treated, then the costs will go up even more. If you think those 100 lb + Sip panels are going to magically fall into place with so much less labor than traditional framing, you are in for a rude awakening. What abour wiring? That'll add some costs right there. How are you going to jam the final SIP panel in on each side, what kind of a joint are you going to use? Just dealing with the top plate issue is going to cause you some major headaches. If you want true floor to ceiling insulation, good luck getting those panels in place. As far as R10, big deal, use 2" Styrofoam. Then either fur over the Styrofoam, or use a Styrofoam product that is made for basment insulating and finishing. ( http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/na/res-us/products/wallmate_slotted.htm). Simply use 2" thick styrofoam (R10) and 2x4 studs 2' OC. This will give you room to run wires the traditional way. Super insulating a basement is not going to gain you much from an energy efficiency standpoint. The only major savings would be where the basement wall extends above grade. |
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engineerbob
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 22 Dec 2006 09:05 AM |
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Typical Engineer response. What is that?? If you are already set on using SIP to finish off a basement, and won't listen to reason, go ahead and don't was anybodies time on here. The illusion that using SIP's is automatically going to save a bunch of on-site labor is simply not true. It might save some with an experienced SIP crew, but an experienced framing crew can probably frame as house as fast as an inexperienced SIP crew. I for one would not want to use OSB next to a concrete surface, so if you have to go treated, then the costs will go up even more. If you think those 100 lb + Sip panels are going to magically fall into place with so much less labor than traditional framing, you are in for a rude awakening. What abour wiring? That'll add some costs right there. How are you going to jam the final SIP panel in on each side, what kind of a joint are you going to use? Just dealing with the top plate issue is going to cause you some major headaches. If you want true floor to ceiling insulation, good luck getting those panels in place. I also think you'll find that no basment walls are square and plumb anyway, fitting a square piece, into an out of square wall, will take some extra work. As far as R10, big deal, use 2" Styrofoam. Then either fur over the Styrofoam, or use a Styrofoam product that is made for basment insulating and finishing. ( http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/na/res-us/products/wallmate_slotted.htm). Simply use 2" thick styrofoam (R10) and 2x4 studs 2' OC. This will give you room to run wires the traditional way. Super insulating a basement is not going to gain you much from an energy efficiency standpoint. The only major savings would be where the basement wall extends above grade. |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 20 Jan 2007 08:47 AM |
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We have completed a number of project with our panels. They are fantastic for home theaters.... you can heat these basements with a match now! I was surprised at the lack of information from SIP suppliers and other contractors in this area. I could only find one SIP manu. that had anything even close to what we came up with.
Innovation is the key. People are buying a lifestyle not a home. Owens Corning has a panel that you can only buy through an installer they have contracted with, the panel is a joke. BTW Owens Corning was going to create a SIP line but, as I understand it they back out of it. PINK SIP's yahoo! Glad they did, back out that is. |
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EZ-Build Systems
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 22 Jan 2007 11:23 AM |
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Have to agree with engineerbob on this one...we do not recommend SIPs for basements for the exact same reason: OSB on concrete?! Best system is to have ICF basement and SIP walls.
We have sold hundreds of SIP homes across the country and again, I have to agree with Bob: an inexperienced SIP crew can be a nightmare! Inexperience is the key word here though...we have had good experiences with crews that are only familiar with stick framing, but have been in the business a number of years and most importantly, can read! Our biggest problem has always been with the guy who thinks he doesn't have to read the SIP drawings to put up a SIP house for the first time. Throw the arrogance out the door, do your homework by reading the drawings first and maybe even watching a video ahead of time on SIP installation, and then it won't go so bad...we tell all of our builders/customers that the first 1-2 SIP homes will not go up any faster than stick framing. After that short learning curve however, you can bet your boots that SIPs win over stick framing big time (as high as 50%) in labor time. With a crew that has used SIPs even once before, the framing will go faster, drywall will go faster, wiring will go faster, hanging cabinets will go faster, etc...it has to: you are working with a product that already has the insulation & inside & outside sheathing installed, so even if a crew could put up stick walls in the same time frame that they can place panels, they still have to install the insulation and the sheathing! Also, you are working with perfectly straight, flush walls...how many 2x4's or 2x6's have you seen lately that are perfectly straight? Electricians love SIPs too as they only have to fish the wiring through the chases and no longer have to look for studs to drill through. So, other SIP suppliers should take heed: be with your customer/builder on that 1st or even 2nd build to ensure that they do it right and they will remain loyal customers for years to come. Anything new always takes some time to learn. Why waste an opportunity to show them how to use SIPs correctly from the beginning? |
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SIP007
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 22 Jan 2007 04:59 PM |
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Ez, thanks for your input, I still can figure out what your point is. Your point is what? OSB, doesnt meet concrete. We use a shoe or track we modified, on the plate ,overall the panels we used are superior to anything I have seen since 1978, when I began in the industry. |
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slenzen
 Basic Member
 Posts:434
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| 23 Jan 2007 10:57 AM |
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sips for a home theater...hmm. what are the STC ratings on sip panels?
My cousin framed up 1000 sq ft area in my basement in a couple days and then I hit it w/ spray in expanding foam insulation. Put down electric radiant heating cables. It is very comfortable on the coldest days here in MN. |
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