A lot of people on this forum seem to think SIPs are too expensive.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for alternative ways to enclose a house--a timber frame house, to be specific.  My husband and I are planning on building a timber frame this summer in a cold, windy, location.  We'd like the performance (or close to it) of SIPs.  But we'd rather do the work ourselves, on site, and save a few bucks.  Does anyone have suggestions for tight, efficient enclosure of a timber frame that doesn't involve SIPs?

Talk is cheap. Other than earth sheltered or straw bales, the alternatives are not.


Well, you could utilize a 'Super Wall' as detailed below. Or, you could use a Larsen Truss as detailed in this article. You will find that Spray Foam is not a cheap alternative.

Many SIP factories sell nail base panels. They are really the same thing as SIPs but are not stamped as structural and often cost much less. Look for companies that can provide you with nail base. Also you might find a supplier that can provide something other then OSB on one or both sides of the panel. If you have siding or dens glass on the panel, you might eliminate materials and labor on finish.

Thanks for the suggestions. We'll look into the nail base panels. One other concern we have with any kind of panel is that expensive equipment (crane, reach lift) is required to install it. This is one reason we're also looking into other kinds of super insulated walls. Of course, the roof is another story. . .

You might consider steel sips, since they are lightweight , usually twp men can install up to 16ft. safely without any lifting equipment

have alook at at site call:

Link

Not sure why you don't want SIPS. They may be a bit more expensive for material, but they are much more cost effective to install, and energy savings will be much greater, as well as smaller HVAC utilization. The cheaper option in the short term will be the more costly one over time.

Thanks for suggesting Nascor. The EnerGard Wall System sounds like it might work for us. My huband has talked to them on the phone and they've been very helpful. The EnerGard system is cheaper than SIPs, and readily available in our area (Montana). Now we just need to figure out what to do with the roof.

In my experience SIPs are much more expensive for the materials, and they are much more expensive, because of the equipment involved, to install. I appreciate the long-term savings. I'm just wondering if similar savings can't be had with other wall systems that cost less and are easier to use. I try to keep my mind open. That's why I'm asking for suggestions. There are many ways to build a house.

Livy, How much of a difference in price between sips and nascorwall system.
The nascorwall system may not be as good as the sip system, but it would be better than a stick and fibreglass system. It gets back to cost and payback, if sips cost $3000 more and the savings are only $150 a year, over nascorwall, it will take 20 years to payback. Most consumers wouldnt be in the same house in 20 years. So it always gets back to cost and payback and maybe nascor is that middleground.

 

The Nascorwall system is about 2 dollars cheaper per square foot. than the price we were quoted for SIPs. They also look easier to install. However, we'd still probably need to use SIPs on the roof.

Livy, The resaons above are why I became a distributor for Nasocr 15 years ago here in Malvern, PA about an hour west of Philadelphia. There some occasions where I have had to modify panels onsite, but the majority of the time they are exact. The panels use a 2x6 Nascor I-joist in place of the stud and EPS foam inifills between the columns. They apanels are R22 mean R-value. The panels are screwed together with 3" square head screws which allow to modify panels if necessary by taking panels apart, making changes and putting them together again. All window and door openings are insulated lamitated beam headers. No dimensional lumber. I have supplied builders and homeowners throughout the Mid-Atlantic US from Maine to Bismarck ND. The bigest advantage I see for these panels it that they work with any 2x6 set of blueprints. Nascor does supply shop drawings and there is only about a 30 minute learning curve to erect panels. The following link is to a 24,000 sf church I did a few years back. Each wing was erected and then the center section ( worship area) was field measured and panels were within a 1/2 inch when completed. http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=&a=&f= http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=&a=&f= I am getting ready to start construction of my own 3000 sf home and will be using 10' Superior Wall xI system for foundation, Nascor Energard for walls and conventional roof trusses with Cellulose insulation. Just my 2 cents as a distributor for the company. John

When comparing the Nascor vs. SIPS, are there other costs to Nascor that are not considered in the lower price? To me it looks like the loss of the OSB on each side would mean that the walls would not have the strength that a SIP wall would have, or am I wrong? Also, how do you add plumbing and electrical to the walls after they are erected, do you have them already run in the panels at the factory and drilled through the I-beams?

 

Also, how far apart are the I-beams and are they close enough to each other to meet the nailing specs of siding manufacturers or do you need to apply OSB and adhesive to the outside of the walls to fasten the siding to?

 

On the inside are they close enough to allow you to screw wallboard to without problems or do you need to use an adhesive to hold the drywall between the I beams?

Denny,

The wall panels are actually almost twice as strong as conventional 2x6 wall and as strong as SIPS. Depending on the heighth of the wall an exterior sheathing is applied on site. In the case of my own home I am either using the ZIP Wall system by Huber or Advantech. The panels ae not shipped with sheathing for 2 reasons. Site installed sheathing allows for a 2 foot overlap between the panels ans also allows to run the sheathing down over rimboard and tie the panels together.

Each panel includes a horizontal chase profiled out of the EPS foam and all 2x6 columns are drilled in the factory. When you get to the corner you either go up or down to floor joist. Which ever is easier. As for plumbing we try to account for that in the design stage and move plumbing to interior walls. If this can not be done a 2x plumbing wall is built  against the exterior Nascor wall. If you prefer you can cut out foam with hotwire knife but that defeats the purpose of a well insulated wall.

Columns are normally 16 or 24 inches on center so there is no problem attaching exterior sheathing or drywall. Also where all interior walls intersect exterior walls a 2x6 horizontal nailer is factory installed in the panel. One of the great advantages of this system is no nail pops. Installed a wall 19; tall by 94' long with no openings and did not have a single nail pop.

Link

Hope I answered all your questions.

John

ErgoDesk,

You seem to imply that Steel Insulated panels by Bii are considerably less expensive than SIPs. Per square foot of wall, what is your price point?

Dick Mills

Ergo,

I would be very interested in those alterlatives. Please proffer a couple of website links and maybe a brief description of what they offer.

Thanks,

Dick Mills

Ergo,

It sounds like you aren't here to provide any information, just to drum up some traffic for your blog.

Dick Mills

HILARIOUS!

By the time I finished the string, I forgot what the forum topic was!

To Livy,
If your plans are already engineered, was the frame calculated using a 'stick framed shell'?
The best way to prepare for a cost effective approach is laying out an experienced team in a choreographed manor. Using the testing data of the manufacturer you chose during engineering will possibly minimize lumber but gain engineering costs. Having an engineer familiar with your product always helps.
Time is money, so…

I have worked on several timberframe applications and I agree with the one users comment for a nail base application. This applies only to the roof and would still rely on some type of ply over the bents. However I have witnessed a dojo construction where the wall panels were placed ‘between the posts’ opposed to ‘over them’. This made for tricky installation as nailing was required on both sides.

If you have a good experienced crew and utilize the nail base on the roof, + smaller 4x panels for your walls, you may get away with not using cranes, etc… but still knock out the shell in good time
(depending on your project’s complexity and/or location)For all I know, you may need to strap on some 4x8's onto a couple of mules. lol

Good luck choosing your shell Livy

 

It's good to have a variety of alternative building systems. The various foam SIPs look promising.