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arkie6
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| 02/10/2009 8:28 PM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/09/2009 12:18 PM
...The roof itself was 6inch double sided 26 gauge steel panels. R43 insulation factor...
How do you get R43 from 6 inches of foam?
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johncarl
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| 02/12/2009 11:58 AM |
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http://www.alumadhield.com/common/specifications.aspx?ID=55
Aluma Shield AW500 6" Panel ASTM R Value 54.9
I hope this answers your question...
John Carl
Superior Home Technology, LLC
superiorhometechnology@yahoo.com
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cmkavala
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| 02/12/2009 12:28 PM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/12/2009 12:00 PM
http://www.alumashield.com/common/specifications.aspx?ID=55
Alumashield Panels are designed to be cladding over a red-iron frame, they have poor span capabilities they will not work per mfg. unsupported for gable walls / roofs over 14ft. tall/span
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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SimonD
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| 02/12/2009 2:26 PM |
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You can get longer spans out of Aluma-Shields panels for housing applications, but the Manufacturer's specs will not support this because they have a specific installation application with span tables that only support the product as cladding with hidden fasteners on a commercial metal building structure. You need a knowledgable independant engineer like the one I work with to adapt them to a residential application. I've designed 4 houses here in Florida with them so far and think they are a great panel, but you have to be able to bridge the technical support gap and think outside the box.
However, the panels Chris K uses has Manuf. specs that fully support a residential application. |
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Building Designer
PANELfusion, LLC, Tampa, FL
simon@panelfusion(dot com)
"Metal SIP Advocate" |
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cmkavala
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| 02/12/2009 2:37 PM |
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SimonD;
Alumasheild will not approve or warranty their panel in that application according to the area REP. Charles Kerr.
Its OK to think outside the box, but if your panels fail, don't plan on going back to the mfg. if you have over spanned the intended use. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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SimonD
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| 02/12/2009 3:12 PM |
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| You are right Chris. Warranty is a tricky thing when using metal SIPs in a residential application. Manuf don't really support the use of their Metal SIPs in residential housing application for the most part. As you know, we both started doing this over 10 years ago, so we've both have had to adopt a little bit of a pioneering spirit when it comes to adapting metal SIPs to residential applications. The bureaucracy, existng codes etc are not set up to understand Metal SIPs for housing. One must follow sound engineering and design principles and have a clear understanding of materials and their appropriate application as building components. Of course, metal SIPs in the wrong hands can end up in catastrophy, but a homeowner is better off choosing the right designers and builders than relying on warrenties and codes to protect them. It's nice to have all your documentation in order, but that is not always possible when pioneering a new building system. |
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Building Designer
PANELfusion, LLC, Tampa, FL
simon@panelfusion(dot com)
"Metal SIP Advocate" |
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bashfuleddie
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| 02/12/2009 5:06 PM |
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| Chris who is the panel manufacturer you are using now? |
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cmkavala
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| 02/12/2009 6:32 PM |
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| Shadowline from www.SipSupplyInc.com |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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johncarl
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| 02/12/2009 7:40 PM |
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Hey Guys
I am really impressed with the knowledge that you all have regarding metal sips.
You have to have a Engineer to seal any prints for the sips. So that is where the process begins. Span tables and calculations. That is why they and we have to have errors and ommissions insurance.
Once you gain the knowledge of sealing the panels and installing them, then you can do some great things with them.
The Aluma Shield panels have the span to do anything you wish with them. They can come up to 30' if I am not mistaken. We just cut them in half, and use interior walls to support them. |
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cmkavala
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| 02/13/2009 5:57 AM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/12/2009 7:40 PM
Hey Guys.
The Aluma Shield panels have the span to do anything you wish with them. They can come up to 30' if I am not mistaken. We just cut them in half, and use interior walls to support them.
Span has nothing to do with length capabilities our panels come 53ft. but would never span that far, nor would a credible engineer ever certify them to do somethin they are not designed to do
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Chris Kavala
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cmkavala
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| 02/13/2009 5:58 AM |
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Johncarl;
aren't you the guy that was affiliated with Medallion Homes? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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johncarl
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| 02/13/2009 1:53 PM |
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Chris
Yes I started under the Medallion in the Spring of 2005. Mr. Bill the founder of the system passed away September of 2006. He had some good ideas that had to be Validated by PE's. I had the system Validated and Evaluated by 2 Pe's and they signed off on the system.
After Mr. Bill passed, I started another company with one of the founding partners. Superior Home Technology, LLC Unfortunately things have not worked out with my other partner and I am planning on going solo now. I have a couple of projects under my belt and I feel confident that I can move forward and to carry the torch.
You Gentlemen have a wealth of knowledge and experience that I am very fortunate to draw on.
Chris the original question to this series of posts stated a 6" panel with an R50 value. I showed him the Aluma Shield Panel. Yes Aluma Shield is known for its roof skins. But they are also known for their Refrigerated Panels that have very high R Values.
I know a PE will not sign off on a 50'+ span because of the lack of support. That is why on a Gable roof we build stem walls for additional support. We have actually used the 40' 6" Steel Insulated Panels for Attic Floors where parts of the roof spanned 40' and we added additional steel studs in walls closes to the spans to add additional strength in that area.
Again a PE and a Architect have to sign off on all of the things out of the box that it takes to make not only my system, but any other system.
Thank you all for your insight...
Let's Build some houses...
John Carl
Superior Home Technology, LLc
superiorhometechnology@yahoo.com
321 947 0929
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cmkavala
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| 02/13/2009 4:02 PM |
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Yes, I heard that Bill Payne passed away, it was unfortunate, but has Paul Harvey always said "now is the rest of the story"
It is my understanding that before Bill passed away his PE licensed was revoked and that Medallion Homes went down the tubes?
You are listed with the state as one of their LLC managing partners as well as Bill Payne, Michael Kelly, Alberto Puentes, Paul Luedke and Jennifer Kelly.
Your reputation precedes you!
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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johncarl
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| 02/14/2009 11:19 AM |
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Chris
What you heard is actually distorted. Bill actually gave up his Florida PE License several years before Medallion Home Technology was formed. He still had his Michigan PE License in effect up to the time of his passing.
When I joined Medallion Home Technology in September 2005, I had the system Validated and Evaluated by an Engineering Firm in Lakeland, Florida. Yes Mr. Bill had great ideas, but it is only an idea until someone in authority Validates the claim which was done. Don't get me wrong, I had to make some changes as we went along...
Before Bill passed away we were just starting a house in Haines City, Florida. We eventually got the CO and a happy customer. A 3/2/2 2034 sf home. By the way his electric bill averaged $45.00 month last summer.
Once Mr. Bill passed away Mike Kelly, his wife Jennifer Kelly, my wife Aimee Thierry and I formed another Corporation called Superior Home Technology, LLc. We have one project under construction down in Pt St Lucie, Florida. A 4/2.5/2 3145 sf.
Because of Philosophical Differences Mike Kelly, Jennifer Kelly and I are parting ways. Our values and goals do not line up. We were having issues with several projects, and we felt it was best for us to part ways.
Shortly I will be forming my own company and moving forward.
Unfortunately we lost a lot of business like everyone else with the Financial Market Issues. But I am still pressing forward, and continuing Mr. Bill's legacy.
JohnCarl
superiorhometechnology@yahoo.com |
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cmkavala
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| 02/14/2009 12:26 PM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/14/2009 11:19 AM
Chris
What you heard is actually distorted. Bill actually gave up his Florida PE License several years before Medallion Home Technology was formed. He still had his Michigan PE License in effect up to the time of his passing.
Unfortunately we lost a lot of business like everyone else with the Financial Market Issues. But I am still pressing forward, and continuing Mr. Bill's legacy.
JohnCarl
superiorhometechnology@yahoo.com
Your story continues to be distorted, Its called a vouluntary relinquishment by the state. Its not something that happens because you did something good.
Bill may have been a visionary and a genuis.
Unfortunateley I had to clean up one of Bill's engineering catastrophes on a home in Tampa. He used refrigeration panels for a roof span at 20ft. but they were only designed to go 10ft.
The panels failed and nearly caved in the roof see pictures below.
Bill had no errors or ommisions policy, leaving the homeowners to foot the bill for the repairs
SO MUCH FOR THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX, you CANNOT use panels for something they were not intented to do PERIOD!
This is what you are asserting in your previous posts, I would not be so quick to carry on a legacy for someone with such stained past
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Chris Kavala
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johncarl
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| 02/14/2009 1:38 PM |
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Dude
You are picking a fight with the wrong person. You are using other people's statements against me as if I said those statements. I have no previous knowledge of Mr. Bill's projects. I do not even know what year this incident transpired. I did not know Mr. Bill then.
I can see where the problem came in. As you pointed out someone signed off on the wrong panel, if this was in effect the case. You made your point. It is obvious that there was a problem.
Bashing someone innocent to the situation is not the way to go.
If he did not have E&O Insurance and General Liability Insurance, then the customers could have sued him personally and placed a lien on his home.
Look Mr. Bill had a vision. As I mentioned in my previous post, I had the system overhauled after it was Evaluated and Validated by 2 Proffesional Engineers. Then I went through the entire system screw for screw, stud for stud, and building material for building material and made changes after consulting professionals such as Roofers, metal framers, dry wall specialists etc....
He had an idea and I took that idea to another level.....
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cmkavala
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| 02/14/2009 2:16 PM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/14/2009 1:38 PM
Dude
You are picking a fight with the wrong person. You are using other people's statements against me as if I said those statements. I have no previous knowledge of Mr. Bill's projects. I do not even know what year this incident transpired. I did not know Mr. Bill then.
I can see where the problem came in. As you pointed out someone signed off on the wrong panel, if this was in effect the case. You made your point. It is obvious that there was a problem.
Bashing someone innocent to the situation is not the way to go.
If he did not have E&O Insurance and General Liability Insurance, then the customers could have sued him personally and placed a lien on his home.
Look Mr. Bill had a vision. As I mentioned in my previous post, I had the system overhauled after it was Evaluated and Validated by 2 Proffesional Engineers. Then I went through the entire system screw for screw, stud for stud, and building material for building material and made changes after consulting professionals such as Roofers, metal framers, dry wall specialists etc....
He had an idea and I took that idea to another level.....
You proclaim to be carrying on the mans legacy, well along with that legacy comes the smell of something rotten.
You should ask why would an engineer living and working give up his license in that state?
No one signed off on the wrong panel, they were specified as Contemporary Panel and that is what was supplied, the manufacturers span charts indicated a 10ft. max. span but the Medallion Homes plans showed a 20ft. span signed and sealed by Mr. Payne. I guess he was smarter than the span charts, that "thinking out of the box" if you will.
The customer did attempt to bring action against Payne but you can't get blood out of a stone. I am not sure if it was their project that was his ultimate demise or another victim.
I am not bashing you personally, however you seem to be taking it that way, maybe guilt be association?
I am asking why you would want your name associated with someone that brought a bad name to the industry. He may have had good intentions to start, but ultimately his engineering was reckless causing harm to others.
There are pioneers in this industry and some that have been a detriment
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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cmkavala
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| 02/14/2009 2:21 PM |
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Posted By johncarl on 02/12/2009 7:40 PM
Span tables and calculations. That is why they and we have to have errors and ommissions insurance. We found that not to be true: errors and ommisions is not required
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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johncarl
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| 02/15/2009 2:57 PM |
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Chris
When I said earlier that your facts were distorted, I was bringing up the fact that Bill Payne was operating under Medallion Enterprises at the time and not Medallion Home Technology. When I met Mr. Bill he was operating under KG Builders, LLC. They ran into problems with the name because it insinuated being a Builder and not a manufacturer, so it was changed to Medallion Home Technology, LLC in September 2005.
I have been very civil in this matter and maintaining a professional attitude. You basically accused me of being part of Mr. Bill's past, which I was unaware of. Medallion Home Technology, LLC had nothing to do with this incident.
Look Dude...My dad was an attorney. My brother is an attorney and my wife was in Law School when I met her. So I am very cautious in what I do and say and I cover my 6 in all matters.
I am giving you the chance to apologize for your mistake, take that post with the picture down, and we can end this bad blood peacefully and we can continue promoting our product to the world.
I knew Mr. Bill had lost his Florida PE License due to some type of Administrative Action. He said he gave up his license instead of paying the fine....
At that point it did not matter, because we had the system Validated and Evaluated and he had to answer to the PE and the Architects about everything. Looking back at the time he was a broken man just trying to get his dream off of the ground, when he had to answer for his ideas.
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seaglade
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Posts:31
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| 02/15/2009 5:06 PM |
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John Carl,
I have been reading this forum long before Kaval took over as the SIP Expert, all you have to do is go back and read through just a few of his comments and replies on this forum and his M. O. becomes clear rather quickly. He bashes most companies and owner builders who use something other then the product he sells. His attitude and words speak very clearly, apology isn't in his vocabulary. |
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