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ligoneri
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 09/07/2007 2:51 AM |
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I have a plot on which I want to build a home for my retirement. The plot is in Greece (the one in Europe) and overlooks a bay. The slope, and the view are unfortunately to the North (30 degress W of N to be precise). To the South of the plot there is a steep mountainside, which does not give a particularly nice view. The plot is at about 38 degrees North.
All the advice for passive heating is generally to have the biggest percentage of the living rooms, and the windows, on the South side, and few windows to the North. My wife wants to have big windows and a deck facing the bay - the exact opposite.
Any advice from you guys out there would be greatly appreciated. |
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mmacgowa
Registered Users
Posts:542
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| 09/07/2007 6:33 AM |
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This is a trick question, right? Listen to your wife while you still have one.
A SIP house will work well to minimize your energy costs, but perhaps you need to look at the math first. The cost of upgrades and finding labor to install alternate construction methods may not be worth what you will save. Your time might be better spent sitting on the deck reflecting on God and your life then trying to build an energy efficient house. Although our area is learning to be more green, the value of the view is worth significantly more then the energy upgrades.
With that said, there is definately value in a comfortable home. A SIP house will do well and provide you with a way to better manage the air quality. Quality of life has a tremendous value during retirement.
Good luck and keep us posted. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 09/07/2007 7:58 AM |
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mmacgowa
Since you brought God into the conversation, I think God would appreciate us being good stewards of the earths natural resorces and to save those resources for future generations. If one can afford to conserve, it is money well spent for everyone, its not all about just you. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 09/07/2007 3:32 PM |
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Posted By ligoneri on 09/07/2007 2:51 AM
All the advice for passive heating is generally to have the biggest percentage of the living rooms, and the windows, on the South side, and few windows to the North. My wife wants to have big windows and a deck facing the bay - the exact opposite.
Any advice from you guys out there would be greatly appreciated.
Since it doesn't look to get especially cold there, super insulating may not be worth it. For those North facing windows, think about using an insulating drape or blind that can be closed at night. You could also use dual windows to double the U-Value.
Most of Greece has medium solar isolation(1,350 - 1,700 kWh/m2). So, you could place solar collectors on your South facing roof and provide some of your heat via hot water(think radiant floor).
Good Luck! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ligoneri
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 09/07/2007 6:30 PM |
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Yes mmacgowa, deadly serious.
Passive heating/cooling has not been accepted here in Greece, although a majority have solar water heating. The authorities here are paranoid about earthquakes, and, the new government, after the elections next week, will be paranoid about fire resistance. Energy saving is not high on the agenda. I plan to use all double windows on the North side - not huge expanses of glass - with shutters.
Message for jc . if I can get SIPS or ICF at a reasonable price I will go for it. You guys on that side of the pond do not realise what bulding materials cost over here. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 09/07/2007 6:51 PM |
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ligoneri
My next door neighbor has a second home in Greece and plans to move back there as soon as his Fl. home sellls. He tells me that his walls are about 18" thick and rarely needs any AC, relying on thermal mass.
there are many european countries that use steel SIPs for refriigeration if they have a urethane core they would also have a good fire resistance too
Even the Chinese have realized the benefits and are big on SIPs
http://megeshelters.weebly.com/prefab-houses.html |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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mmacgowa
Registered Users
Posts:542
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| 09/07/2007 8:22 PM |
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Chris,
I agree that we should be good stewards with everything. Chances are that if you are living here, your stewardship would be rewarded more with the view. And as men we are also called to serve our wives. I would try to do the best job with meeting both demands and pray first for wisdom in the matter. But in the end the good book suggests that the planet is going to be resurfaced. And if we are gonna "go there" the Word suggests the second coming from the sky, better have a window to see it coming! And more important, one should have a relationship with the great GC in the sky to know where to look.
I know there are some companies shipping SIPs across the ocean. If material costs are outrageous, it might be worth a look. The problem with SIPs is the fact they take up so much space but perhaps you would be money ahead if traditional resouces are proportionally higher. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 09/08/2007 7:59 AM |
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mmacgowa
I never said anything about shipping SIPs across the ocean, I was refering to utilizing European manufacturers in Greece. And I certainly do not want Chinese SIPs here, although they did have a strong presence at the last IBS. I'll bet no one noticed they were marketing SIPs? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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mmacgowa
Registered Users
Posts:542
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| 09/08/2007 10:25 AM |
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Chris,
In shipping SIPs, I was referring to some earlier posts. I haven't had the need to look into it. I know shipping is economical in the right situations. But if you are in a place like Juneau where it is the viable means for large goods, they will see you coming. I was just extrapolating from the idea that local materials were outrageously priced and the liklihood that alternative materials are not available.
The steel SIPs might be a great way to transport. I would think they could be bundled for shipping and would not have the issues of exposure like OSB.
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 09/08/2007 1:06 PM |
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Posted By ligoneri on 09/07/2007 6:30 PM
Message for jc . if I can get SIPS or ICF at a reasonable price I will go for it. You guys on that side of the pond do not realise what bulding materials cost over here.
If that's the case, then maybe it would be feasible to buy it here and ship it there.
A 40' "High Cube" shipping container(L:39'6", W:7'8", H:8'10") holds 2,684 cubic feet. And, there's no doubt in my mind that you could fit all of the walls, and depending on the size of the house, possibly the roof also into one of these puppies.
It would be nice to see the US export something once in a while! %^) |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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mmacgowa
Registered Users
Posts:542
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| 09/08/2007 9:42 PM |
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| The trick for shipping panels would be the engineering. It would take some digging to find whether the evaluation testing would be valid in Greece. ICFs might be a better way to go as there is a prescriptive acceptence for them in the international building code. They would also be easier to load as JC has pointed out that the container is only 7'8" wide. Panels would have to be stacked on end to fit. And they would have to most likely be loaded by hand as they would have to be loaded from the back. Jumbo panels are bad enough to grab in the middle let alone trying to shove one in from the end. You would have problems with loading pallets of ICFs as well, but you could stack them on a small pallet and then load them with a fork lift. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 09/08/2007 10:47 PM |
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Posted By mmacgowa on 09/08/2007 9:42 PM
The trick for shipping panels would be the engineering. It would take some digging to find whether the evaluation testing would be valid in Greece. ICFs might be a better way to go as there is a prescriptive acceptence for them in the international building code.
The International Code Council(ICC) voted to adopt SIP's into the International Residential Code at their Final Action Hearings on May 22. The prescriptive specifications and installation detail submitted by the Structural Insulated Panel Association(SIPA) and APA-The Engineered Wood Association will be included in the 2007 supplement to the 2006 International Residential Code(IRC). Building Systems - July / August 2007
I think that he'll be ok. This is a big deal for the SIP industry! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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mmacgowa
Registered Users
Posts:542
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| 09/09/2007 5:33 AM |
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| That is a BIG BIG deal. Do you have a link to prescriptive tables JC? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 09/09/2007 10:13 AM |
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I don't advise shipping from the US as there are probably plenty of closer european companies.
BUT the steel SIPs we use from SipDepot are exactly 45-1/2" wide x 2 = 7" - 7" , gee those are perfect for container shipping. They are also available in any length increment to the 1/4" as steel comes in coils and not predetermined sheets, which is more cost effective, they also only weigh 2.5 lbs. per square foot making shipping by any means less expensive |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 09/09/2007 1:15 PM |
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Posted By mmacgowa on 09/09/2007 5:33 AM
That is a BIG BIG deal. Do you have a link to prescriptive tables JC?
Yup, try this.
Also, a quick glance indicates that only OSB faced SIPs qualify at this time. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Gordon503
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 09/12/2007 3:20 AM |
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| Folks, get a grip. It's ridiculous to talk about shipping SIPs or ICF to Europe, where they've been using another perfectly good "green-building" technology for decades, namely, autoclave-aerated concrete blocks (AAC). Just go to Google and type in "Ytong." They have it in Greece, Turkey, Hungary, Bulgaria, and everywhere else. Recently the company has opened a big plant in Georgia (USA, that is) as well as one in Monterrey, Mexico, to serve the market in Texas and the Southwest. I've lived in Greece, and there's no way I would try to put up a SIP house there. It's a great product, and so is ICF, but let's be realistic. |
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ligoneri
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 09/12/2007 5:16 AM |
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| Thanks for your comments gentlemen. There is no way I would import from a distance - "far fetched is dear bought", and I would only entrust the work to an experienced, recommended erection crew. My investigations so far indicates that there is no such thing in mainland Greece. A SIPS company exists in Cyprus, and there is an ICF agent in Corfu, not much good to me. What I am getting from contractors is generally "this is the way that it is done here", meaning concrete frame and brick infill, poorly insulated by modern standards. This attitude prevails with the authorities too - "if it has not been done before, I am not being the first to permit it". Thanks for the suggestion Gordon503, I already know YTONG. The house with 18' walls mentioned by cmkavala is ideal, and I know of many. It must, however be relatively old, as it is unlikely that you would get permision to build such a thing toady. |
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Jvontrapp
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 09/23/2007 3:47 PM |
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how long have you been living in Greece? First of all Ytong blocks can be used instead of the bricks with a half centimeter piece of styrofoam in between, I know several people who have built with ytong and they are a much better option than the brick way. Second anyone can install the ytong blocks. And third if you are worried about getting permission to do anything in Greece I would say either you are overly paranoid or havent figured out that about one third of all constructions in Greece are built illegally and that in general laws are not as strict as one might think. I grew up in Vermont which gets very cold in the winter, but I find winters in Greece almost more uncomfortable than in Vermont because insulation doesnt exist in Greece and houses in general are cold. If you have a north facing house near the sea you are going to want to insulate that house because your heating bills will be through the roof if you try and keep that house warm with Greek construction techniques.
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ligoneri
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 09/24/2007 12:30 AM |
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I have been living in Greece for the better part of 20 years, and I am well versed in the ways, both of Greek officialdom and the construction industry. Maybe I am paranoic, but I WILL have a house that is well constructed and economical to heat/cool. The statement that "using Greek construction methods will cost you a fortune in fuel bills" is already engraved on my heart, I have arguments about it on a regular basis! The local industry says "we have always done it this way, that is the way you will get it - no matter what you put in the Contract'.
My original enquiry about SIPS stemmed from my attempt to get away from this attitude. It appears that, at this moment, there is no supply in Greece, not to mention skilled installers. Ytong is widely used, and I have discovered cavity insulation 180mm thick and roof insulation 200mm thick (7"and 8") on the local market, but so far I have had no reply about pricing. I will keep you posted.
Thanks for the interest guys! |
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