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gameboy
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 09/19/2007 8:35 PM |
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This is not a post from anyone with an axe to grind or anyone with an interest in any specific product.
It is simply a view from someone who was intent on using either
ICF or SIP construction on a 3500 square foot house in the mid
Atlantic; Virginia to be specific.
I did all the research I could and found ICF to be too expensive and
troublesome regarding blow out problems. One thread in that forum goes
a long way towards scaring someone away.
I did all the research on SIPS, and got a reasonable estimate from a
well known local producer who's product has been
named/recommended on this site many times.
When I talked to three of the local builders, not uninformed amateurs,
but people who I know and respect, and have used the product,
they said they had problems, and the subs would charge a premium.
So, I am going with a pre-fab stick product, with two inches of EPS
sprayed in, which comes to the site complete, including Tyvek.
I will fill in the remainder of the cavity with blown in cellulose, a product I am happy with in my current house.
It wasn't my wish or intent, and believe me, I did the work.
Every single sub told me they would charge extra for the SIP/ICF
situation.
I don't know if this helps, but if I was a player in this industry, I
would be interested in the experience of a consumer with a bit of
knowlege who has spent years looking at this, and decided to go another way.
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 09/19/2007 9:45 PM |
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Posted By gameboy on 09/19/2007 8:35 PM
When I talked to three of the local builders, not uninformed amateurs, but people who I know and respect, and have used the product, they said they had problems, and the subs would charge a premium.
Interesting, but not unusual. But, let's look at the facts(from a SIP perspective):
- Framers: The system is new to them, and they'd rather cut 2x's and shoot nails then assemble something. But, the structure will be erected faster...
- Electricians: They have the biggest challenge. But, with builtin wire chases, those with experience working with SIP structures can actually save time. And, the panel installers can make their life easier by predrilling a few holes(top & bottom plates)...
- Plumbers: Should not have any complaints(or up charges). Most of their work is done in interior(non-SIP) walls or the floor. For things like a kitchen sink, they can bring everything up from the floor instead of using the walls...
- Drywallers, Roofers and Siding installers should not see any additional effort required. In fact, drywalling should be easier.
That said, I think that what you are witnessing, is rejection of change. People, in general, hate change. If they've been doing something 'their way' for 20 years, they are not going(or don't want to) to change for your project.
It's really unfortunate, but you have to find those that see the advantages of new technology. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 09/19/2007 10:18 PM |
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gameboy;
The resistance is from your builder(s) who just wants to do business as usual , using the subs as an exuse to persuade you to go conventional. They have done an injustice to you, themselves and the product with their self-centered narrow minded thinking.
I have used SIPs to separate myself from the tens of thousands of competing builders in the state and narrowed it down to just a few who have the foresight to build a better product. Like yourself, many of my customers have taken the time to educate themselves about the advantages of SIPs and make the decision to move forward knowing they are investing in a better, stronger, efficient home. This market has always been consumer driven, there will come a tipping point though, with the lack of skilled workers and when the larger tract builders will realize they are missing the boat in speed of construction and make the switch. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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gameboy
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 09/20/2007 1:48 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 09/19/2007 9:45 PM [u]Posted By gameboy on 09/19/2007 8:35 PM[/u] When
I talked to three of the local builders, not uninformed amateurs, but
people who I know and respect, and have used the product, they said
they had problems, and the subs would charge a premium.[/quote] Interesting, but not unusual. But, let's look at the facts(from a SIP perspective):
- Framers: The system is new to them, and they'd rather cut 2x's and
shoot nails then assemble something. But, the structure will be erected
faster...
- Electricians: They have the biggest challenge. But, with
builtin wire chases, those with experience working with SIP structures
can actually save time. And, the panel installers can make their life
easier by predrilling a few holes(top & bottom plates)...
- Plumbers: Should not have any complaints(or up charges).
Most of their work is done in interior(non-SIP) walls or the floor. For
things like a kitchen sink, they can bring everything up from the floor
instead of using the walls.
[/quote]
As I said in my original post, I am probably going
with preconstructed wall panels that will be completed at the factory
including tyvek, sprayed with 2" of EPS, then shipped to the site.
So the framers will not ......."cut 2x's and shoot nails then assemble something."
I will complete the cavity with blown in cellulose.
What they told me was that whenever they had a problem with the SIPS,
they went throguh a process of who's fault is it, and when that was
done how can we fix it, all costing days.
The electrical contractors said they would charge extra, and that SIPS were a pain.
As you menitoned. the plumbers had no issue.
Framers and electrician's comments drove me to this point.
By the way, the framer has a BS in mechanical engineering, has done
four SIP houses of this variant to date, so its not some rube with a
tool belt.
Is isn't a fait accompli yet, and I still prefer the SIP option, but I
am being told that, at least in this climate, it isn't worth it.
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gregj
Registered Users
Posts:165
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| 09/20/2007 2:46 PM |
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You will hear about problems with any form of construction.
I looked at the prefab stick built panels and the word I got from construction pros here was that they were of poor quality. The manufacturer uses unskilled labor to assemble and they don't orient the crown consistently so you get wavy walls.
I also heard blowout stories with ICFs and was worried about that but I poured an ICF basement with absolutely no problems. Nice straight walls. And the ICF supplier never showed up for the pour. Just me, a buddy with some flatwork experience and some teenage boys. We poured in 4 ft lifts using a 1" vibrator and only minor adjustments were needed on a few wall braces (maybe 1/4") to bring the full walls straight with the string line.
My point is that any system can work and any system can fail. It depends on execution.
But really, I think blowouts on ICFs will only happen if you take shortcuts or do shoddy work. Take the time to double check everything, don't get in a hurry during the pour and you'll be fine.
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