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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/06/2007 1:19 PM |
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| Can the experts here tell me how SIP is superior to ICF?
Seems to me that the OSB is flammable, as is the foam inside.
Is the internal foam open- or closed-cell?
Can you build with SIP to Seismic D1? D2?
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 11/06/2007 6:54 PM |
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Posted By Quantum on 11/06/2007 1:19 PM
Can the experts here tell me how SIP is superior to ICF?
Basically it boils down to R-Value and Cost. If you need the strength or safety of steel reinforced concrete, go with ICF's.
Can you build with SIP to Seismic D1? D2?
If you can stick frame in those areas, you can utilize SIPS. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/06/2007 10:10 PM |
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JC,
Is it fair to say that for a DIYer ICF's might be less expensive to construct if the labor is all sweat-equity? But that the quality might suffer if one is not experienced in handling the ICFs due to poor temporary shoring, or not plumb, or . . . ?
But, if the labor is mostly hired, then SIPs are the less expensive alternative due to the fact that a lot more labor is necessary for ICFs (erecting, shoring, filling, vibrating, etc.)? And, that again is only from a cost perspective, and only for the erection of the walls.
Dick Mills |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/06/2007 11:29 PM |
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Quantum,
In your question you talk of OSB clad sips burning. You are right they can burn but steel clad sips don't. Structurally the steel clad sip using open cell foam cores (EPS) are unique in that the adhesive actually penetrates the foam and this forms a bridge or I-beam effect so that the structure is as strong as an I-beam. When I was building my two story house that is 60 by 32 the was a one story 1500 sf ICF house being built down the street. With a four man crew I was under roof before the ICF house walls had been completely formed up and poured. I'm not a GC just an owner builder, but I have seen big slabs of concrete that are re-enforced with steel crumble. In fact I needed some fill and got some concrete slabs for some fill. Funny thing I can bust them down to rubble with a good whack with a sledge hammer. I have seen the test video of the fire proofing of the steel sips and know of the cannon test where the 2x4 is shot out at 200 mph and it at best has put a dent in the side of the panel but never penetrates. Are Steel sips stronger than ICF's well I am not an expert but my home went through three hurricanes with out any damage. Right now I am working with a bunch of guys that have never put up a steel sip structure and after two days the 64 x 30 duplex is half way under roof. Once the envelope is complete I would say that an earthquake would have to swallow the the house whole to do any damage to it structually. Again this is my humble opinion and I admit I am not an expert. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/06/2007 11:31 PM |
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R-value? ICF has an efective insulative value of R-50. This is the combination of foam insulation (R-24 for Logix), and the thermal inertia of concrete.
Cost, yeah OK. And true a DIYer can really fsck up ICF. Block manufacturers make it sound alot more simple than it is.
But what really bothers me is that SIPs are flammable. Of course OSB, and not to mention the foam. Steel SIPs seem the only acceptable option, although if a fire the foam inside would turn to sludge (if not ignite) and could never be repaired. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/06/2007 11:42 PM |
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Quantum,
If you send me your e-mail I will be glad to send you the file that shows the fire test of a 20 x 20 wall section where the balst furnice hit it for an hour. At the peak of the test the highest temp on the inside of the panel was 180 and after the test they used a four inch hole saw and cut a piece of the skin off and the foam underneath look as though it just came out of the factory |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/06/2007 11:53 PM |
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| I don't know how hot of a fire you would have to have to melt a steel sip. My insurance company rates the steel sip as non combustible fire proof and gives me a discount. Also, if a fire breaks out in a room on the inside, the room is so tight that it should put it self out before spreading to another room or getting hot enough to melt the foam on the inside. Just a thought... |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/07/2007 12:00 AM |
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Donaldson,
Are you sure that your panels are using an open cell foam? I have never heard of an open-cell EPS foam, so I am just curious.
Dick Mills |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:808
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| 11/07/2007 6:09 AM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/07/2007 12:00 AM
Donaldson,
Are you sure that your panels are using an open cell foam? I have never heard of an open-cell EPS foam, so I am just curious.
Dick Mills
Dick; (Mr. Last word)
donalson is correctin his statement
PS:
most DIYers get in over their heads using ICF's its too complicated to build with unless they have some basic construction background
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/07/2007 6:33 AM |
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JW,
Hi, JW asked me a question via e-mail sent through the system of this forum but for me to answer the question JW I need you to include your e-mail address as that doesn't show in the e-mail from buildingtalk, Donaldson |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/07/2007 6:35 AM |
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Chris,
Is the foam in your panels open-cell?
Dick Mills
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/07/2007 8:10 AM |
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'Blast furnace'? No. The purpose of a blast furnace is to melt steel... much less foam. The melting-point of steel is above 1800F. Oftentimes housefires get above this. And I'll bet the internal foam melts at 200F. This can never be repaired.
As I say, no doubt steel SIPs are better than OSB. OSB is just unacceptable.
I tried to send you an email with my address, but when I click Send nothing happens. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/07/2007 10:51 AM |
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Quantum,
Please excuse my miss use of the term blast furnace, if that is what I did. All I know is I saw the furnace in pictures in the 48, page report. Don't know why you can't e-mail me so I will quote a few statements from the test. If you are still concerned about fire then do what you will feel the most comfortable with. All I am trying to point out is if there hasn't been a fire hot enough so far in one of these steel or aluminum sip structures to melt the foam inside the panel. i am not saying it is not possible, but a fire inside has to go through the drywall first and that is usealy long enough for the fire department to get there. In the case of the fire outside like California most of the flames are not close enough to start the fire by themselves but the embers get to the roof or the siding to start the fires from the out side. My house has steel roof so I have nothing on the outside to burn. If the fire were to get hot enough to melt the foam on the inside then it would be hot enough to structurally damage concrete as well.
According to the test research done by, Western Fire Center in Kelso Washington done on June 3, 2004 WFCi Report # 04036 states:
“The purpose of this test was to evaluate fire endurance characteristics of the client’s wall assembly when subjected to standard fire exposure condition and hose stream test” pg2
PG 14 gives a chart of furnace temperatures which is given in five minute increments at five minutes the temp was 556.3 Celsius and at one hour the temp had climbed to 924.2 Celsius. PG 14
Test Results and Conclusion stated period under positive test conclusions on pg 16 says that the wall assembly “successfully withstood the 1 hour fire endurance period under positive pressure …. No significant wall deformation was observed during test period… the average temp on the exposed wall was 152 degrees Celsius which translates to (°C to °F Multiply by 9, then divide by 5, then add 32) 305 degrees F….. A hole saw was used to remove a portion of the facer on the exposed surface near the center of the foam panel assembly, and no damage, melting or otherwise, was noted. PG 16
My goal is to provide you information but you decide.
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 11/07/2007 11:21 AM |
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Posted By Quantum on 11/06/2007 11:31 PM
R-value? ICF has an efective insulative value of R-50. This is the combination of foam insulation (R-24 for Logix), and the thermal inertia of concrete.
Nope, don't buy it. The R-Value is simply that of the foam which is generally around R-20. Concrete is a thermal conductor and offers no appreciable R-Value. I have seen studies that back this up.
R-Value is R-Value. A lot of companies like to boast about 'Effective R-Value". What is that, and how do you prove it scientifically? What they are apparently trying to do is boost the R-Value of the product due to low air infiltration or some other non quantifiable property.
And, please remember that if you are looking for thermal mass, you certainly don't want foam insulation between the mass and the interior. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 11/07/2007 11:34 AM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/06/2007 10:10 PM
JC,
Is it fair to say that for a DIYer ICF's might be less expensive to construct if the labor is all sweat-equity? But that the quality might suffer if one is not experienced in handling the ICFs due to poor temporary shoring, or not plumb, or . . . ?
Very Possibly.
But, if the labor is mostly hired, then SIPs are the less expensive alternative due to the fact that a lot more labor is necessary for ICFs (erecting, shoring, filling, vibrating, etc.)? And, that again is only from a cost perspective, and only for the erection of the walls.
The answer there, in my opinion would be yes.
You could always look at it a 3rd way: Using raw panels and doing all of the fabrication onsite. In that scenario, the cost difference(materials only) should also make SIPS less expensive. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/07/2007 6:48 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 11/07/2007 11:21 AM
Nope, don't buy it. The R-Value is simply that of the foam which is generally around R-20. Concrete is a thermal conductor and offers no appreciable R-Value. I have seen studies that back this up.
R-Value is R-Value. A lot of companies like to boast about 'Effective R-Value". What is that, and how do you prove it scientifically? What they are apparently trying to do is boost the R-Value of the product due to low air infiltration or some other non quantifiable property.
And, please remember that if you are looking for thermal mass, you certainly don't want foam insulation between the mass and the interior.
OK. So it is a fact that EPS at 1.5 density has an R-value of 5 per inch. And it is a fact that most ICF forms are 2.5" per panel, so 5" of foam = R-25. Logix is 2.75" per panel, but that's another story.
But it is becoming clear to me that where advocates of SIP and those of ICF differ is WRT concrete. SIP advocates say that concrete is not so strong and crumbles with the tap of a mallet. Hm, I hope the best for our interstate highway system and bridge overpasses then.
And it is clear that SIP advocates either do not understand concrete's thermal inertia, or do not see the benefit of it. A large mass which can absorb and give off heat has been used since the Anasazi Indians built a thousand years ago. In fact since the ancient Greeks. Thermal mass is very beneficial to smooth out the wide fluctuations of outside temperatures through the day. There can be no disputing that.
And the thermal mass moderates inside temperatures, effectively providing additional insulative value. The R-factor to rate insulation is a poor measure, but it's all most people understand, so it was necessary to quantify the benefit of mass thermal inertia into the R-factor. This was done in a university study ten years ago, and is the basis for the [i]effective[/i] insulative value for ICF of R-50 (as opposed to the [i]actual[/i] insulative value).
Having a layer of insulation between you and the thermal mass isn't optimal, true, but a necessary compromise to make the concrete form and provide firring strips.
At this point I am convinced that there is no justification for OSB SIP. And OK, I hadn't realized that that study had a layer of sheetrock over the SIP. That makes a big difference. So one hour of fire resistance for a steel SIP. Four hours with ICF.
I am challenging you so I can learn the reality of SIPs, and I am grateful for your honest input.
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/08/2007 1:20 AM |
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Quantum,
I think you are making this way to hard. First I did not say that the Sip fire protection was for one hour only, the test didn't take the time to see how many hours it could hold up, all the test did was show that an interior wall with drywall did not experience any failure after one hour of extreme heat applied to the wall which is the standard fire test method. The idea of thermal mass being a true insulation value seems a bit hard to swallow for me. I lived in a block house and when it was hot and the sun was shining on the block wall, I could put my hand on the inside of the wall and feel the heat. If it were cold outside I can feel the cold. When it is 95 sun shining day out side, I can go to my "attic" space in my vaulted sip second story and put my hand directly on the underneath side of the sip roof panel and it is as cool as the other side of the pillow.
The second thing that I like about the steel sip system is the completely enclosed envelope with the sip roof. Most ICF homes that are being built where I live use conventional construction for the roof with rafters and trusses etc and vented attic spaces. During the hurricanes the uplift on the roof caused roof failure and or the wind would push the water up the side of the wall through the sofet and spill over into the block and actually fill the block with water or in the case of stick seep down into the insulation and then it just seeps for months out into the home. I have talked with contractors that feel it is difficult at best to put a sip roof on an ICF wall, but if I were to build with ICF's I know it would have a sip roof on it.
If concrete is to be load bearing it has to have reinforcement bar, why? Because in and of itself it has very little structural strength. A steel sip panel can go three stories, thirtytwo feet straight up with out any structural re-enforcement steel of any kind. On the inside you can hang by just screwing to the inside skin of the wall a c channel to hang your floor joist for up to two floors or a three story building. Talk with an engineer and they will tell you that a structural I-Beam is one of the strongest building materials you can use. SIP's are building with structural I-Beam. I don't think you can have a thirty two foot high wall of ICF's with out having some structural reinforcement. A novice home builder which I consider my self to be can push two panels together and see if they are locked in, level and straight. With our 64 X 30 duplex with novice to SIP's construction guys when the wall sections came together on the last corner neither side of the wall was more than 1/8 inch out of plum and with a gentel push one way or the other the "bubble was in the middle" and you could screw it together having a very straight wall. Today we finished putting the roof panels up and we started on Monday. Three days and we are under roof, (man that is fast). I don't think any ICF house would be under roof after just three days on the job. ICF's are not a bad product or idea in and of them selves but giving the multiple variables in installation, there are more things that can go wrong than with sips, and the cost of labor being what it is, it just was a cost prohibitive choice for me. Steel sips for Florida are strong, durable, efficient ,can be used by the less experienced laborer with good results. This is why they make a better choice for me.
According to the State of Florida energy calculation program that my electrical engineer used for the energy calcs for sizing my HVAC, my six inch roof panel with a steel shingle roof and 3/4 inch air space between the drywall and the panel with 5/8 drywall on the ceiling creates at a minimum an R-40 roof. The walls at four inches with 1 1/2 inch air space between the wall and the dry wall making the total wall debth 6 inches makes for about an R-30 total insulation shield. If this is not enough r's for you than use 6 inch walls and 8 inch roof, heat the place with a candle and cool it with an ice cube! |
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coddave
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 11/08/2007 2:09 AM |
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Hi Quantum,
With regards to fire, is your concern with the structure or survival of the occupants? If the fire starts inside the house, by the time the walls catch fire, the contents of the home are on fire and survival of the occupants is minimal. If a substantial fire starts outside of the house, I can see a significant advantage for using ICF, however will you use wood or steel roof trusses. Steel trusses can do weird things when exposed to heat.
Regardless, both products have advantages over conventional framing (> 93% of single family homes) in regards to R value and fire. It's funny that there seems to be so much conflict and positioning for such a small portion of the housing market.
Dave
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slenzen
Registered Users
Posts:163
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| 11/08/2007 9:59 AM |
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How do Sips and Icf compare in cold climates like MN where the temp may not exceed 40 for 3 months in the winter. From my research thermal mass(concrete in ICF) works best when there is a swing of temps day and night but when the temp swing is from cold to colder then back to cold during the day is the performance there? MN is one of the biggest adopters of ICF homes FYI.
I'm kinda leaning towards an ICF walkout basement and SIP construction as I want a passive solar multistory flat roof home. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:808
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