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Dick Mills
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Posts:124
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| 11/16/2007 9:11 PM |
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Chris,
So I guess that you are now backing away from your false statement about the cost of insurance?
Dick Mills |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/16/2007 9:16 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/16/2007 9:11 PM
Chris,
So I guess that you are now backing away from your false statement about the cost of insurance?
Dick Mills EXCUSE ME!!!, I am Not a Liar , YOU ARE OUT OF LINE
the flyer came directly from Gene and per you statement he even confirmed it with you ... no I left off since I was not going to include it with the building system
Why Don't you continue with your cost analysis and quit making slanderous statements
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/16/2007 9:24 PM |
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So, one more time, are you saying that the cost of insurance for a steel sip house is 50% less than the cost of insuring the same house made with OSB sips?
Because Gene didn't say that, not in the flyer, and not in the email that he sent to me.
Dick Mills |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/16/2007 9:50 PM |
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Chris,
Do you recommend that the furring strips be placed 24" OC? or 16"? or 12"? I would think that drywall wouldn't hold up very well against bumps and other normal wear at 24".
And, do you attach the exterior cladding directly to the steel skin?
Dick Mills |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/17/2007 12:02 AM |
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Dick,
My drywall it attached to 24" OC furring strips. My three boys are rough and tough and in our game room which is 28' x 15' they play indoor hockey, baseball using a foam ball, football etc all running and bashing into the walls and just having a good old fashion fun time. My walls seem to be doing fine. The roof panels are at 24" OC and they are doing fine as well, no sags or dips just perfectly straight walls. I guess Chris K. does know what he is talking about. My homeowners Insurance came out to be about half of what conventional construction would be due to the fact as stated by the insurance company the steel sip received a rating of "structural steel, NON COMBUSTIBLE" OSB sips can't get that kind of rating as they burn! |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/17/2007 12:33 AM |
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Donaldson,
That is good to know about the drywall. Did you use 1/2" sheetrock?
And, my question didn't have anything to do with stick built houses, but was very specific to OSB sips. And, the email from Gene clearly stated that OSB sips would also get significantly better rates than sticks, just not as much as steel. So that 53% number of Chris's mistaken at best, and a falsehood at worst.
And, don't get me wrong, I like steel sips! My only point is that OSB is significantly less expensive. And, I don't even know why that is. Long flat steel (wihch is aparently the term used for steel coils) in August of this year was selling for an average price of $0.40 / pound. That average price includes all long flat steel products including galvanized, but the galvanized might come in at the high end or somewhere around $0.45 / pound. And these prices are from the mill in truck load prices or probably minimum monthly commitments of 30 tons or more. So some steel sips manufacturers may not be able to get the best prices.
But assuming $0.45 / pound; 26 gauge steel weighs about .75#/square foot, so the maximum amount of steel in a 4'x8' steel sip should be around 72 square feet (32 square ft for each side, and I am assuming a maximum of 3" on each edge for whatever interlocking mechanism they use. So, that is 72 square feet * 0.75#/square foot * $0.50 (max) = $27/panel or roughly $0.85/square foot. That might compare with $0.25/square foot for OSB (or probably more like $0.50), but I can't see why the best steel sips prices are in the $5.00 / square foot (for 6" OSB) compared with the best prices I can find for OSB sips at $2.80 / square foot.
Granted, steel needs to be roll-formed with a machine that has a capital cost of $100k or so, but that's a capital cost that should equate to several cents per square foot maximum.
Dick Mills
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:269
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| 11/17/2007 1:40 AM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 11/16/2007 8:09 AM
But I know it cost way less to build steel sip than with ICF. Donaldson, unfortunately there isn't any steel SIP going up in my area for me to go take a look at. I would really like to because I have an open mind to it, and it would be fantastic if it were affordable. Tell me how you know it costs way less to build steel SIP than ICF.
Posted By cmkavala on 11/16/2007 6:10 AM Posted By Jelly on 11/16/2007 4:47 AM
Dare I say it? ... steel SIPS are starting to look more expensive than ICF. I might be crunching the wrong numbers though. Your numbers are wrong
Using the price you mentioned ($19.68
per lineal foot for 6") just the raw materials for steel SIPS work out
to be more expensive or about even with ICF (depending on the variable
costs of rebar and concrete). Mind you I'm only talking about the wall materials. With ICF I'll have to rent bracing equipment. On the other hand with steel SIPS I'll have to fur out the interior walls and lath the exterior for stucco.
If hiring someone to do steel SIPS is cheaper than hiring someone to do ICF that's something else. So if we're talking about time to be dried in, then steel SIPS will be faster, and that translates into money saved for a builder. But the situation isn't quite the same for me as a do-it-yourselfer.
Please remember that I'm not here to challenge anybody or rail against their method of building. I'm just trying to work out out the best way for me to build, and I appreciate all of your help in that process.
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 8:45 AM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/16/2007 9:24 PM
So, one more time, are you saying that the cost of insurance for a steel sip house is 50% less than the cost of insuring the same house made with OSB sips?
Because Gene didn't say that, not in the flyer, and not in the email that he sent to me.
Dick Mills
Yes, absolutely it is in our area.. as OSB SIPs are considered wood frame / combustible
Plus add the 10% savings for builders risk insurance
It's the same flyer that has been posted on the form twice before it speaks for itself it says STEEL sips, not OSB , Not hardie, But STEEL
I didn't falsify anything I am simply relaying, the information. As a matter of fact OSB SIPS or block/wood frame for commercial use in Pinellas county are uninsurable. it is the reason Gene and other owners built with Steel SIPs |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 8:49 AM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/16/2007 9:50 PM
Chris,
Do you recommend that the furring strips be placed 24" OC? or 16"? or 12"? I would think that drywall wouldn't hold up very well against bumps and other normal wear at 24".
And, do you attach the exterior cladding directly to the steel skin?
Dick Mills
Dick,
24" oc. is the standard for commercial construction it doesn't get much more abuse than in a commercial environment
In closets and baths were wiring is not going you can attach directly to the skin, no furring necessary
And, all exterior cladding are attached directly to the skin
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 9:15 AM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/17/2007 12:33 AM
Donaldson,
That is good to know about the drywall. Did you use 1/2" sheetrock?
And, my question didn't have anything to do with stick built houses, but was very specific to OSB sips. And, the email from Gene clearly stated that OSB sips would also get significantly better rates than sticks, just not as much as steel. So that 53% number of Chris's mistaken at best, and a falsehood at worst.
And, don't get me wrong, I like steel sips! My only point is that OSB is significantly less expensive. And, I don't even know why that is. Long flat steel (wihch is aparently the term used for steel coils) in August of this year was selling for an average price of $0.40 / pound. That average price includes all long flat steel products including galvanized, but the galvanized might come in at the high end or somewhere around $0.45 / pound. And these prices are from the mill in truck load prices or probably minimum monthly commitments of 30 tons or more. So some steel sips manufacturers may not be able to get the best prices.
But assuming $0.45 / pound; 26 gauge steel weighs about .75#/square foot, so the maximum amount of steel in a 4'x8' steel sip should be around 72 square feet (32 square ft for each side, and I am assuming a maximum of 3" on each edge for whatever interlocking mechanism they use. So, that is 72 square feet * 0.75#/square foot * $0.50 (max) = $27/panel or roughly $0.85/square foot. That might compare with $0.25/square foot for OSB (or probably more like $0.50), but I can't see why the best steel sips prices are in the $5.00 / square foot (for 6" OSB) compared with the best prices I can find for OSB sips at $2.80 / square foot.
Granted, steel needs to be roll-formed with a machine that has a capital cost of $100k or so, but that's a capital cost that should equate to several cents per square foot maximum.
Dick Mills
Dick;
Your real slick at mis-direction, please finish your over-all analysis with the total cost savings by using steel SIP's keep the insurance issue aside to bolster your claims for now.
Yes ,the raw OSB panels are less to start with but to do a fair analysis please add to the cost of the OSB:
Crane
soffit - (labor and material)
sub-fascia
routing windows and door bucks.
Splines
spline fastening
Spline sealants/mastic
vapor barrier
cost to add chases
waste costs- by not getting specific lengths ( since steel is in coils we are able to get panels cut to our specifications within a 1/4' we are not paying for a 24ft. and only gettin a 21ft.)
cost to protect OSB from termites, carpenter ants & mold - if thats of importance to you?
your steel sip material costing is askew as well, a decent continuous roll forming machine is at least 300K, but spread out over several million sq. ft. of panel over several years it's not too bad, the current machine has been in use for over 25 years
I could give you the bottom line cost savings over OSB, but you would just acuse me of falsifying it , so I would prefer that it would come off you lips , if your brave enough to finish what you started
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/17/2007 1:37 PM |
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The email sent to me by Gene said
"while the discounts would not be as deep as the steel, they still would be
significant over CB or traditional frame construction."
So, Gene doesn't consider them to be the same as wood frame. You may want it to be, but you simply are wrong.
And, in the property insurance business, Fire (along with lightning) related claims amount to about 15.2% of their costs. Any insurance company offering a 50% discount on insurance based on a maximum of 15.2% savings would at best be a fool, and certainly no one that you would want to do business with.
So, do you want to persist in your lie?
Dick Mills |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/17/2007 1:46 PM |
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Jelly,
I know that ICF's would have been more expensive to do because when I was getting bids to do my house, just for the ICF walls, with no roof, it was going to be $20,000 more than the cost of the entire sip shell. Again, it becomes fairly easy to get a good estimate. Find a floor plan, any floor plan and send it to several contractors for an initial bid with them doing the labor. Ask for a break down of materials cost and labor cost and then compare.
Steel sips for the DYier is far easier than ICF's with less chances of mistakes. You don't have to be sure that the vibrations and cement pumping is done correctly to get the cement to fill in and set up properly. Nor do you have to worry about being out of plumb. As stated before our 64 X 30 duplex was only out of plumb by less than a quarter inch from going all the way around the outer wall. One small push in and everything was as square as can be measured by building tools.
Speed in finishing the house is still important even as a DYIer, you still have loan interest to consider, unless you are paying cash for everything and not borrowing any money. Also, no mater what type of construction you do, you will have to have some people helping you. If you are paying these people then the faster something is done the cheeper it cost. The tighter money is, the more importance speed plays into the equation. You will also have to lath the outside of ICF's for stucco so that is a wash. You will have to ferr out the inside of the Icf unless you are going to attach drywall to the foam block. Again I am going by what is done in this area so maybe there are cheeper ways to do things. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 11/17/2007 2:14 PM |
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Dick,
My drywall is 1/2 inch. You have to know that many things are trade offs sometimes depending on your area. Not to mention the additional costs as mentioned by CK that bring the costs up there with OSB sips, there are longer term issuses as well. Here in Florida we have severe moisture issues, and termite issues, just to name two. Those two things alone can be constant cause of continual costs. At our retirement center we choose the steel Sip over everything else simply because every duplex (about 40) so far that has been stick built with sheeting etc has been tented for termites at least once and some have been tented three times at an average cost of $2,000 a pop. Cement stucco expands and contracts at a different rate than wood therefore every stucco structure over time develops cracks in the stucco. This then leads to moisture getting behind the stucco and therefor causing wood damage problems. During hurricanes the wind can blow the rain through the cement stucco. There were instances of the rain being blown through cement blocks to the interiors of house during the hurricanes of 2004. However, steel sip stucco houses don't develop that same problems because the steel and cement expand and contract at the same rate. And even if the stucco did crack and allowed moisture to get behind it, or it was blown through by hurricane winds, it is not going to do any damage because of the steel.
Costs are cost, it is not an issue of what you think a company should charge for their panels the issue is what are the actual costs. Companies charge what they can make the most profit on. When I was building my house one of my best friends was building an addition to his at the same time. His addition was the same size as my home. He used OSB sips and his overall costs after all the things that CK mentioned were more expensive than mine. I will have to ask him again and get an exact figure for comparisons sake. |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/17/2007 3:48 PM |
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Chris,
What problem do you have with my steel price numbers? Even if you paid $300k 25 years ago for a roll former (current prices aren't that high), that works out to probably less than a nickle a square foot.
Do you have problems with the rest of my numbers? I was exceptionally generous in the price of steel at $0.50 / square foot for 26 gauge steel. Do you see other problems with my numbers?
Dick Mills |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 3:55 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/17/2007 1:37 PM
The email sent to me by Gene said
"while the discounts would not be as deep as the steel, they still would be
significant over CB or traditional frame construction."
So, Gene doesn't consider them to be the same as wood frame. You may want it to be, but you simply are wrong.
And, in the property insurance business, Fire (along with lightning) related claims amount to about 15.2% of their costs. Any insurance company offering a 50% discount on insurance based on a maximum of 15.2% savings would at best be a fool, and certainly no one that you would want to do business with.
So, do you want to persist in your lie?
Dick Mills LW;
Wish you would have posted the entire unedited email message from gene
The flyer was not prepared by me and speaks for it's self ,
either you lack the understanding to comprehend it?,
or you know more than the expert in risk management?
if you know what the discount is for OSB then state it!
Again the facts are that Gene built his office with steel SIPs because the OSB sips, or wood frame, or CB & wood truss were simply not being underwritten
So please explain how OSB is dicounted if you can't insure it?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 4:01 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/17/2007 3:48 PM
Chris,
What problem do you have with my steel price numbers? Even if you paid $300k 25 years ago for a roll former (current prices aren't that high), that works out to probably less than a nickle a square foot.
Do you have problems with the rest of my numbers? I was exceptionally generous in the price of steel at $0.50 / square foot for 26 gauge steel. Do you see other problems with my numbers?
Dick Mills
Lw;
I am awaiting for you to finish the total analysis for the wall systems, with the steel benefits
If I have shortchange the benefits of OSB, please let me know where?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/17/2007 4:03 PM |
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Chris,
I did post the entire unedited email from Gene earlier, and he says that he can insure OSB sips. All this proves is that even after you have been confronted with the truth, you still chose to be mistaken. In my mind that takes a pretty accomplished lier.
Dick Mills
here is his entire unedited email, again:
Dick, thanks for the info on posting. As regards other SIP Types, we can
insure them be they OSB, Hardy Board or other types, the primary issues
beyond construction type are location issues, specifically what Protection
Class. If they are out in the country w\out traditional urban services I
would not expect the discounts to be significant, but if within urban areas
while the discounts would not be as deep as the steel, they still would be
significant over CB or traditional frame construction.
Gene Moore
727-734-3433, 102
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 4:08 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/17/2007 4:03 PM
Chris,
I did post the entire unedited email from Gene earlier, and he says that he can insure OSB sips. All this proves is that even after you have been confronted with the truth, you still chose to be mistaken. In my mind that takes a pretty accomplished lier.
Dick Mills
here is his entire unedited email, again:
Dick, thanks for the info on posting. As regards other SIP Types, we can
insure them be they OSB, Hardy Board or other types, the primary issues
beyond construction type are location issues, specifically what Protection
Class. If they are out in the country w\out traditional urban services I
would not expect the discounts to be significant, but if within urban areas
while the discounts would not be as deep as the steel, they still would be
significant over CB or traditional frame construction.
Gene Moore
727-734-3433, 102
LW;
There is no way to determine if you have altered the e mail. there is no
Date:
Subject:
from:
To:
Are you hiding something?
How's that analysis coming?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 11/17/2007 4:34 PM |
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Chris,
You can email Gene and ask him:
link
Or call him. I would think that he would like to hear from everyone; everyone is a potential customer. I have nothing to hide, I am not nearly as fast and free with the truth.
Dick Mills |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 11/17/2007 4:40 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 11/17/2007 4:34 PM Chris, You can email Gene and ask him: link Or call him. I would think that he would like to hear from everyone; everyone is a potential customer. I have nothing to hide, I am not nearly as fast and free with the truth. Dick Mills
LW;
I am glad you have nothing to hide, we all have Gene's email address as it was on previous posts and mine is on every post.
If you are a man of your word and you do not have anything to hide then post your as well.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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