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moibiusmuse Registered Users
Posts:6

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| 12/03/2007 1:25 AM |
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Greetings, all...
I'm in the very early stages of planning a 2-story home that I'm trying to design from the combined perspective of efficiency, cost, simplicity and "green"-ness.
Because this is my first home design project, and I'm on the bottom end of a steep learning curve since most of my initial design choices were outside of the conventional stick-or-brick residential construction mold.
As a preface to my questions, I've linked a PDF with the basic design idea for the home. (I apologize for the file size, but it includes all the basic design sketches.)
From the purpose of cost-efficiency, I've tried to design the house to be as straightforward as I could:
- Rectangular slab foundation of 75'x30' - Home footprint being a basic rectangle of 45'x30', the balance used to allow for patio and carport usage. - Flat roof - Both floors have 10' ceiling height - Patio on roof, and a light frame glass greenhouse of 20'x20' - 45'x10' area of roof reserved for solar panels (not part of initial construction, except for pre-wiring)
The construction and finish material choices I wanted are:
- Bamboo hardwood flooring for all first and second floor areas - Bath and kitchen areas floored with glass tiles - Steel-faced SIPs - Metal siding - Glass block for larger, non-vista windows
Electrical/HVAC choices:
- Radiant floor heating for first floor - Pre-wiring for Solar panels
So, all of those things being established, here are my string of "new to the game" quesitons I will take anyone's advice on.
1. Before I learned about SIPs, I was very taken by steel-frame construction. Given a choice, I would prefer steel framing over stick for myriad reasons (insects, structural strength (I live in the PNW, so it's earthquake country), moisture resistence). The more I see of SIP construction photos, I see many or most are framed exclusively with SIPs and don't appear to be using beams -- either stick or steel. Am I incorrect in thinking this? Or am I looking to marry SIP with steel-frame to accomplish what I'm attempting.
2. HVAC concerns with SIP. I am intially supposing that I would be using SIPs for the wall framing, the 2nd floor and the roof. Given I'm thinking both ceilings to be 10', and I'm hoping to use radiant heat on the first floor. I'm not sure what my choices are for 2nd floor heating and cooling. Do I need to be creative with the ducting and run it along the ceiling and try to make it a design element? Or is there a way to radiant heat the 2nd floor? What about cooling then? I'm not against exposed ductwork, since it can give a modern look if it's not overwhelming, but I'm just not sure what the options are.
3. Mechanical ventilation. Most of the sites I'm reading state that due to the tight fit of SIPs that mechanical ventilation would be required. Is this a unit that co-exists with the HVAC unit? Or does the HVAC work as double duty?
4. SIP flat roofing. I am very decidedly positive about having a flat roof that can be used as patio space. I know that flat roofing is rare-ish in residential construction. I realize most people's aversion to flat roofing is the water drainage/leaks issue. Are there any advantages to using SIP for flat roofs I need to know about? Disadvantages? If I'm using SIPs for the rest of the house, is there any reason _not_ to use it for the roof? Does using the roof as a patio space (additional weight bearing issues) create any implications I need to worry about?
5. Foundation choices. I initially chose a large rectangular slab becuase it presented itself as the cheapest initial design chioce. But with choosing SIPs, and radiant heating, does the choice of slab foundation create issues that can be solved by another foundation chioce?
6. Stove heating. One element that is missing entirely from my current plan is the choice to have a wood burning stove. Other than choosing a location, are there any other considerations when dealing with a tightly-fit construction method like SIP?
7. Clean-air environment. I'm trying to head off any glaring air quality missteps from the beginning. That's why the steel-faced SIPs seemed appealing over the OSB variety. I am going with all hardwood and tile vs. carpet to keep the air cleaner. I also intend to choose air-quality friendly paint. Are there other things I need to consider in SIP construction that can have an impact on indoor air quality?
8. Moisture issues. Being in the PNW, there is a high precentage of the year spent in rain or wet conditions. Are thre any additional steps when using Steel-faced SIPs on a Slab foundation that are important to keep in mind?
9. Lastly, and in the more trivial category. Does anyone have experience with the impact of steel SIP and/or steel-framing as it pertains to things like WiFi, cellular and radio reception? Does all that metal enhance signal transmission, or hinder it?
Thanks in advance for any advice or pointers to websites, or references to PNW home builders or contractors with steel SIP and steel framing experience.
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Jelly Registered Users
Posts:269

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| 12/05/2007 4:06 AM |
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I'm clearly not the best member of the forum to address your questions, but I am interested in the answers so I want to keep the thread alive.
A good website that addresses some of your questions is here:
BuildingScience
There is a lot about mechanical ventilation there - energy recovery ventilators and so forth.
Seems like a lot of folks consider SIPS for flat roofs. I'm not sure why, but I'm sure there's a good reason. I would be interested in seeing some connection details for one. Obviously it couldn't be truly flat. I wonder how that's dealt with - a very slight slope in a lean-to configuration or with a ridge?
And what kind of metal siding are you thinking of? Have you considered fiber cement siding?
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/05/2007 4:28 PM |
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Jelly;
I had addressed many of
moibiusmuse's questions in a direct email to him/her. regarding flat roofs our steel sips can be done flat providing the roof membrane can handle water penetration in the flat. They can also be used as the finished roof in as little as 1/2" per foot slope | |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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Jelly Registered Users
Posts:269

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| 12/06/2007 3:35 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 12/05/2007 4:28 PM regarding flat roofs our steel sips can be done flat providing the roof membrane can handle water penetration in the flat.
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Sounds great if it works. But isn't this sort of just asking for
problems? I thought a truly flat roof was always a no-no. What kind of
roof membrane would be that impenetrable?
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/06/2007 6:20 AM |
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The question was; can SIPs go in the flat ......... yes they can.
The roof membrane is another issue and best answered by a roofing professional. |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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BoloRock Registered Users
Posts:36

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| 12/07/2007 12:30 PM |
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I'm intrigued by question # 9.
Have any of the SIP users to anybody's knowledge... commented about the nature of frequency signals passing through Steel SIPs?
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BoloRock
One extremely happy SIPs homeowner! |
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/07/2007 4:45 PM |
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Posted By BoloRock on 12/07/2007 12:30 PM I'm intrigued by question # 9.
Have any of the SIP users to anybody's knowledge... commented about the nature of frequency signals passing through Steel SIPs?
Bolo;
I had responded privately to the original post post because it was so lengthy, but to answer # 9:
It doesn't seem to interfere with radio, but will diminish cell signal by about one bar. Don't know about TV as we have satellite
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/07/2007 5:22 PM |
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Posted By moibiusmuse on 12/03/2007 1:25 AM
Greetings, all...
I'm in the very early stages of planning a 2-story home that I'm trying to design from the combined perspective of efficiency, cost, simplicity and "green"-ness.
Because this is my first home design project, and I'm on the bottom end of a steep learning curve since most of my initial design choices were outside of the conventional stick-or-brick residential construction mold.
As a preface to my questions, I've linked a PDF with the basic design idea for the home. (I apologize for the file size, but it includes all the basic design sketches.)
From the purpose of cost-efficiency, I've tried to design the house to be as straightforward as I could:
- Rectangular slab foundation of 75'x30' - Home footprint being a basic rectangle of 45'x30', the balance used to allow for patio and carport usage. - Flat roof - Both floors have 10' ceiling height - Patio on roof, and a light frame glass greenhouse of 20'x20' - 45'x10' area of roof reserved for solar panels (not part of initial construction, except for pre-wiring)
The construction and finish material choices I wanted are:
- Bamboo hardwood flooring for all first and second floor areas - Bath and kitchen areas floored with glass tiles - Steel-faced SIPs - Metal siding - Glass block for larger, non-vista windows
Electrical/HVAC choices:
- Radiant floor heating for first floor - Pre-wiring for Solar panels
So, all of those things being established, here are my string of "new to the game" quesitons I will take anyone's advice on.
1. Before I learned about SIPs, I was very taken by steel-frame construction. Given a choice, I would prefer steel framing over stick for myriad reasons (insects, structural strength (I live in the PNW, so it's earthquake country), moisture resistence). The more I see of SIP construction photos, I see many or most are framed exclusively with SIPs and don't appear to be using beams -- either stick or steel. Am I incorrect in thinking this? Or am I looking to marry SIP with steel-frame to accomplish what I'm attempting.
2. HVAC concerns with SIP. I am intially supposing that I would be using SIPs for the wall framing, the 2nd floor and the roof. Given I'm thinking both ceilings to be 10', and I'm hoping to use radiant heat on the first floor. I'm not sure what my choices are for 2nd floor heating and cooling. Do I need to be creative with the ducting and run it along the ceiling and try to make it a design element? Or is there a way to radiant heat the 2nd floor? What about cooling then? I'm not against exposed ductwork, since it can give a modern look if it's not overwhelming, but I'm just not sure what the options are.
3. Mechanical ventilation. Most of the sites I'm reading state that due to the tight fit of SIPs that mechanical ventilation would be required. Is this a unit that co-exists with the HVAC unit? Or does the HVAC work as double duty?
4. SIP flat roofing. I am very decidedly positive about having a flat roof that can be used as patio space. I know that flat roofing is rare-ish in residential construction. I realize most people's aversion to flat roofing is the water drainage/leaks issue. Are there any advantages to using SIP for flat roofs I need to know about? Disadvantages? If I'm using SIPs for the rest of the house, is there any reason _not_ to use it for the roof? Does using the roof as a patio space (additional weight bearing issues) create any implications I need to worry about?
5. Foundation choices. I initially chose a large rectangular slab becuase it presented itself as the cheapest initial design chioce. But with choosing SIPs, and radiant heating, does the choice of slab foundation create issues that can be solved by another foundation chioce?
6. Stove heating. One element that is missing entirely from my current plan is the choice to have a wood burning stove. Other than choosing a location, are there any other considerations when dealing with a tightly-fit construction method like SIP?
7. Clean-air environment. I'm trying to head off any glaring air quality missteps from the beginning. That's why the steel-faced SIPs seemed appealing over the OSB variety. I am going with all hardwood and tile vs. carpet to keep the air cleaner. I also intend to choose air-quality friendly paint. Are there other things I need to consider in SIP construction that can have an impact on indoor air quality?
8. Moisture issues. Being in the PNW, there is a high precentage of the year spent in rain or wet conditions. Are thre any additional steps when using Steel-faced SIPs on a Slab foundation that are important to keep in mind?
9. Lastly, and in the more trivial category. Does anyone have experience with the impact of steel SIP and/or steel-framing as it pertains to things like WiFi, cellular and radio reception? Does all that metal enhance signal transmission, or hinder it?
Thanks in advance for any advice or pointers to websites, or references to PNW home builders or contractors with steel SIP and steel framing experience.
moi;
1. Since SIPs are structural in nature they are normally not used with trusses , therefore you will need to support the ridge with a beam / bearing wall
2. radiant heat could be used on the second level and coverd with a self-level gyp-crete. overhead HVAC ducts are normally run thru dropped halls, closets ,sometmes baths and use side wall supply registers drops can be attached to studs, but in open areas we attach light gage stud to steel skins
3. the ERVs or HRVs can be used in conjuction with air handler or independently
4.As long as the steel sips are designed for the floor load, there is no reason why you cound't use the panels in the flat as long as your roof membrane is designed for standing water too., it is always good to have a slight pitch for run-off
5. poured slabs are our preference as it allows for use of small scissor lifts that are like motorized scaffold, they are also good enough to lift most ridge beams
6. Stove or fire place heating.... Make sure it has an outside fresh air supply for combustion air
7. Indoor air quality... a great reason to use steel sips, ours are USDA approved for use in food prep areas and we have built commercial "clean rooms" with them
8. We are in central Florida, most construction is done on slabs, as in any building type the slab must have a vapor barrier, you need to seal the base track to the slab. Grade dirt at least 6' below floor level and slope dirt to drain away from building. Our summer rainy seasons are as wet and humid as anywhere in the US, typically our interior humidity levels during the summer are 45-55%. One thing I encourage in any tightly constructed home is to use bath fans and kitchen hood do not let those areas increase the interior moisture |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/11/2007 9:06 AM |
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Panels on this job used at 1/2" / 12 pitch with Astec roof coating directly over panel skin has 10 year warranty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21330431@N06/ |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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Jelly Registered Users
Posts:269

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| 12/12/2007 4:12 AM |
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Looking good Chris. I assume that's stucco over paper-backed lath? And how is the "stone" applied?
So on the roof I'm assuming you've got a parapet situation. Do you just hang the roof panels from the inside skin of the side walls?
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/12/2007 6:58 AM |
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Jelly;
Yes stucco over lath, and stone attached to same with just scratch coat |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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trigem1 Registered Users
Posts:50

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| 12/12/2007 1:05 PM |
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From GrandCountySIPs.com
I read your questions, and I had a few suggestions.
1 Most SIP panels are connected together by a 2X spline, such as 2 2X6’s nailed together and nailed and glued at the panel joint. The foam is cut back from the OSB on both panels to accommodate this spline. Sometimes as many as four or five 2X6’s are used for structural strength or to support a roof truss or beam. Check with your SIP supplier to address your concerns with earthquakes to get their advice.
2. If you are going to heat and cool your house, I would recommend using a Hallowell Arcadia Heat Pump. Check out LINK It’s a very efficient, quiet unit that heats at much lower outside temperatures than other heat pumps and will also cool your house. I like radiant heat, but if you want to cool your house, you would need two systems, a radiant and a cooling, which would be much more expensive.
3. SIP houses are so tight, a Whole House Ventilation System would be highly advisable. Your HVAC people should be able to integrate this into your system. Again, if you have one heating-cooling system, this will be much easier to do.
4. The biggest concern with a SIP flat roof (as with any flat roof) is water leakage. Any slope at all would be beneficial. Your wall panels can be cut to create the slope you want. If your roofer can guarantee it won’t leak, go ahead. As far as a SIP roof over a patio, if it’s outside and doesn’t need to be insulated, why bother with the expense of SIP’s. Just have it stick built, and save some money.
5. If you’re going with a slab foundation, you might think about putting a 1-1/2 inch of Styrofoam under the slab to insulate it from the ground. On the other hand, it’s not that much more expensive to put an ICF wall basement under your house. Now you would have extra living room, a place for utilities like the water heater, HVAC systems and storage room.
6. What I would suggest for wood heating is a Fireplace Xtrordinair. LINK This fireplace has a blower that the incoming air source can be placed outside, thereby bringing fresh air from outside, and slightly pressurizing your house to prevent back drafts, and doing an efficient job at heating your house. It even has a catalytic converter to reduce emissions.
7. Add a Whole House Ventilation System to keep the interior air fresh and clean.
8. Add a Whole House Ventilation System to prevent moisture buildup in the house. Also, you could add a dehumidifier if needed.
9. I’ve noticed that most cars have the antenna outside, so it would seem to me that steel walls would have an impact on radio transmission and reception.
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cmkavala Registered Users
Posts:807


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| 12/12/2007 1:40 PM |
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Posted By trigem1 on 12/12/2007 1:05 PM From GrandCountySIPs.com
4. The biggest concern with a SIP flat roof (as with any flat roof) is water leakage. Any slope at all would be beneficial. Your wall panels can be cut to create the slope you want. If your roofer can guarantee it won’t leak, go ahead. As far as a SIP roof over a patio, if it’s outside and doesn’t need to be insulated, why bother with the expense of SIP’s. Just have it stick built, and save some money.
The beauty of the steel sips for a patio is that they are already finished underneath and why not have an insulated roof to relax out of the heat of the sun |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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sled4fun Registered Users
Posts:14

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| 12/14/2007 5:49 PM |
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| I have been in my 2500sf SIP house for a year and a half now. Owner / designer / builder. One thing I used was one 8" inline duct fan that tied all 3 of my bathrooms & utillty room together and was turned on via a 5,10,15 or 30 timer switch located in each room. When you used one bathroom and pressed the switch say to 10min all rooms would ventilate. I also installed a master programable switch in the master bath that could cycle the fan off/on anytime i wanted to via timer. This has worked as a nice quiet ventilation system to keep fresh air in the house and it is very quiet in each bathroom. I am in Sierra foothills near Sacramento and we might see 5-7days in the upper 20's a year and we have not turned our heater on yet. The house really keeps the heat in and with our summer temps being really hot it will keep the outside heat outside very well. |
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