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aksmith42
Registered Users
Posts:29
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| 01/21/2008 12:44 AM |
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| i'm new to the forum, and am considering building a house with sips this spring. i've done some research and noticed several of the companies offer 24' panels. i was wondering what everyones opinions were on these jumbo panels. also i've noticed several topics on steel sips, how does the cost compare to osb sips? and can plumbing be ran in a sips paneling? and one final question, what are your opinions on sips over a traditonal truss system? thanks |
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Garybk
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 01/21/2008 6:33 PM |
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| Sounds neat if you have access to or rent a crane. My longest panel was about 12 feet and was a bit of a challenge with 4 people. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/21/2008 8:03 PM |
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Posted By aksmith42 on 01/21/2008 12:44 AM
i'm new to the forum, and am considering building a house with sips this spring. i've done some research and noticed several of the companies offer 24' panels. i was wondering what everyones opinions were on these jumbo panels.
They are a necessity for self supporting vaulted applications. They would also reduce joints, but they can be heavy!
...also i've noticed several topics on steel sips, how does the cost compare to osb sips?
Can't help you there.
...and can plumbing be ran in a sips paneling? In general no. But, you could box out a portion of the panel, and run the pipes there. If at all possible use the floor, or interior walls for plumbing.
...and one final question, what are your opinions on sips over a traditonal truss system?
I really don't recommend a SIP roof unless the ceiling is vaulted or you are planning on putting your mechanicals in the attic. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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aksmith42
Registered Users
Posts:29
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| 01/21/2008 10:18 PM |
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| i was wondering about using sips over trusses because i'd like to have half the house with the vaulted ceilings and the other with flat ceilings. also i've read you have to give up things like recessed lights. but i assume the roof panels over trusses is probably quite a bit of extra expense? but let me ask you this, if you were to go with a traditional roof system would you stick with cellulose in the ceiling or use spray foam? all of my duct work will be in the basement so that's not an issue, however i like the idea of not having to vent the roof and having i nice open attic to crawl through. that's a lot of questions but i really value all your opinions. thanks, aksmith |
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Lockard
Registered Users
Posts:39
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| 01/21/2008 10:38 PM |
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Posted By aksmith42 on 01/21/2008 12:44 AM i'm new to the forum, and am considering building a house with sips this spring. i've done some research and noticed several of the companies offer 24' panels. i was wondering what everyones opinions were on these jumbo panels. also i've noticed several topics on steel sips, how does the cost compare to osb sips? and can plumbing be ran in a sips paneling? and one final question, what are your opinions on sips over a traditonal truss system? thanks[/quote]Jumbo panels are the only way to go. It's all we use. Not familiar with steel SIPs My understanding is that OSB SIPs are a little cheaper. Never had to do a head-to-head comparison......yet. SIPs over trusses are kind of a waste of money. Why not just use some LVL or parallam midspan/ridge beams and have a continous envelope of insulation? You'll gain square footage and you could use the space as attic or a future bedroom? If you are interested, watch this SIP and timber framed house as it's being built. LINK |
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Lockard |
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alaskabuilder
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 01/22/2008 4:25 AM |
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Jumbo panels everytime!
Boomtrucks rarely have the capacity at reach - most rental firms are requiring certified operators and binders anyway (for good reason).
Basically, if you are hiring a crew - get a crane. $1200 a day avg for linkbelt with operator is cheap compared to labor/insurance.
If you just can't afford the crane and you know what you are getting into - $1500 a week gets you a 10,000 lb plus zoomboom with quick-change extendable jib. Upfront cost is cheap, you need a forklift anyway, and you don't have to watch the crane operator watching you trying to figure out how to build a SIP house.
Downsides are:
Really Low Safety Factor - some would say High Stupid Factor
Needs 360 degree FLAT access to foundation layout
More time intensive
You can do it safely if:
You stay well within load limits - remember crane operators can lose their licences for operating over 75 percent capacity without critical lift setups/planning. The 100 percent load numbers are really just competitive advertising...
You understand that tipping is a big issue - don't even think about it without outriggers, and this is NOT the time to learn how to run a all-terrain forklift.
You know how to properly rig loads.
Otherwise, come up with the money and hire a crane, or just use smaller panels - wood coffin walls have really bad R-values compared to SIPS, although I do hear that the high ground mass gives them up to R-50 potential, just like ICFs!!!
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 01/22/2008 12:01 PM |
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Have used 20 footers on commercial projects and on heavily sloped lots. We are limited to the 20' panel because that is the largest we make. Also, it is the largest we have test data on. Remember, the most cost effective will always be the 4' x 8' panel. If you figure the single highest cost to be OSB the panels bigger than 4' x 8' are disproportionally more expensive, that is to say the cost per square foot is higher. I don't know why since the manufacturers make 8' x 24' panels and then cut to size.
We are looking at building an 8' x 30' press. I know we are limited to 8' x 24' sheets of OSB, but we want to be able to get 6 stacks of 9' panels in one run. Anyway, the crane is relatively inexpensive and the look of those panels going up is really impressive. Additionally we will have to retest the 24' panels both 4' wide and 8' wide before we can use them commercially.
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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CharlesSSF
Registered Users
Posts:21
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| 01/22/2008 1:45 PM |
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Posted By aksmith42 on 01/21/2008 12:44 AM
i'm new to the forum, and am considering building a house with sips this spring. i've done some research and noticed several of the companies offer 24' panels. i was wondering what everyones opinions were on these jumbo panels. also i've noticed several topics on steel sips, how does the cost compare to osb sips? and can plumbing be ran in a sips paneling? and one final question, what are your opinions on sips over a traditonal truss system? thanks The best way to go is with full height panels when you can. There are many factors that play when deciding on these panels.
Steel SIPs can be easily erected up to 24 foot without a crane, or Forklift because they are considerably lighter than OSB.
(Steel SIP about 2.25lb/sq.ft.; OSB panel, 3.5lb/sq.ft.)
In most cases, you will find to have panels and assembly materials for Steel SIPs delivered, it can be a little more expensive. However, if you are looking at the bottom line, from start to finish, there are more ways to save money with Steel, than OSB. Depending on your house, the use of trusses are unecessary with 6" Steel Sips. Our panels can span 24' without trusses. OSB panels require other support within 16'. So you would save more money not using trusses. Also, the Steel Skin is an approved surface for applying exterior finish without Tyvek or other vapor barrier.
Furthermore, setting roof panels to a steel beam with a steel beam cap, made to roof pitch is much more assuring than OSB roof assembly.
OSB SIPs require a Spline between panel, which breaks the continuous foam which is what creates the strength and efficiency benefits.
I only build with SIPs and would not use OSB panels under any circumstances. There are more advantages to using Steel SIPs over OSB, but I would be glad to see you use SIPs, OSB, or Steel, in your project over Stick framing any day.
Charles
Steel SIP Fabicators
"Leading the building industry out of the Woods"
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/22/2008 7:25 PM |
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Posted By Gsfrey on 01/22/2008 12:01 PM
If you figure the single highest cost to be OSB the panels bigger than 4' x 8' are disproportionally more expensive, that is to say the cost per square foot is higher. I don't know why since the manufacturers make 8' x 24' panels and then cut to size.
I guess that would depend on the manufacturer. More than one uses stock OSB sizes, or even custom sizes, to create the panels. It reduces the waste.
And, you are correct, Jumbo OSB sheets are more expensive per square foot. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Garybk
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 01/22/2008 8:47 PM |
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| You can't get a long panel with a 9' ceiling correct? My main floor is 9' high so the sip guys said I could only get panels 8' wide. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/22/2008 9:01 PM |
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Posted By Garybk on 01/22/2008 8:47 PM
You can't get a long panel with a 9' ceiling correct? My main floor is 9' high so the sip guys said I could only get panels 8' wide.
That is a limitation of 8' x 24' Jumbo Panels(or actually Jumbo OSB). If you could find a source that can get 9' wide OSB, and a press that can handle that, you could do as you wish. And since I prefer hanging joists from the top plate, I'd need 10' wide OSB to get that 9' high ceiling. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 01/22/2008 9:05 PM |
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| Don't mean to be a smartie pants, but why not use a 9" panel put on its end? If you want to hang your joinsts, get a longer panel. No need to lay the panel on its side. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/22/2008 9:36 PM |
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Posted By Gsfrey on 01/22/2008 9:05 PM
Don't mean to be a smartie pants, but why not use a 9" panel put on its end? If you want to hang your joinsts, get a longer panel. No need to lay the panel on its side.
No 'Smartie Pants' issue, but I thought that we were talking about 'Jumbo' Panels(8'x 24').
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 01/23/2008 11:25 AM |
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| Fair enough. We are looking to design a 9'x30' press. Any insight would be appreciated. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/23/2008 6:01 PM |
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Posted By Gsfrey on 01/23/2008 11:25 AM
Fair enough. We are looking to design a 9'x30' press. Any insight would be appreciated.
Martin Companies’ Oakdale OSB plant is capable of producing a full range of OSB products, from sheathing to oversize panels in thicknesses from 3/8” to 1 1/8”. Raw panels are formed at up to 140 feet per minute and are delivered as 12-foot x 26-foot sheets that are then cut to meet a range of common and specialty applications. Throughput is anticipated at 850 MMSF of panels per year.
There's a source. The article is here. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 01/23/2008 7:22 PM |
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| Thanks, again. 12' x 26' would be an incredible size in the commercial market. Talk about time savings.... |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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Garybk
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 01/24/2008 11:34 AM |
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| That is a big sheet! |
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Garybk
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 01/24/2008 11:39 AM |
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| The sides of my house are 46 feet long, but with cantilevers. The longest panel then I could use would be 27.5 feet so just a bit more than a full panel put up with a crane and have 9' ceilings. That would be cool... And fast! |
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Matt Phelps
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 01/24/2008 10:01 PM |
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I prefer smaller 4X8 that are erected in vertical orientation because if places a structural member (spline) every four feet. It is true that SIPs are stronger than conventional frame construction; however, placing a spline (2X4 or 2X6) every four feet allows the vertical timber to carry some of the axial load, and not place the entire load on the SIP. I am not sure about cost, but most SIP builders like the larger panels so they can erect the structure faster. I have no experience with steel SIP's; however, I favor (based upon current research) cement board SIPs over OSB because cement is so much stronger in compression than OSB (several times stronger), are fire resistance and offer a simi-finished Wall that after the joints have been floated and filled are ready of interior finish (paint, wallpaper, etc.) and the exterior requires no cladding or other cover and is also ready for finish after floating and filling.
In general SIP's and plumbing mix like drinking and driving. If a wall has plumbing, probably better off with conventional framing.
Most SIP professionals would agree that SIP's over a truss system are a waste of money. Since the SIP (remember 4' wide with 2X6 splines) are much stronger than the truss system, the trusses are not needed. The SIP's may require a mid span beam depending on the geometry of your plan.
Hope this helps and good luck,
Matt Phelps, P.E.
APEC, LLC |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 01/25/2008 9:50 PM |
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Posted By Matt Phelps on 01/24/2008 10:01 PM
I prefer smaller 4X8 that are erected in vertical orientation because if places a structural member (spline) every four feet. It is true that SIPs are stronger than conventional frame construction; however, placing a spline (2X4 or 2X6) every four feet allows the vertical timber to carry some of the axial load, and not place the entire load on the SIP.
Why? If SIPS are stronger than sticks(and you are right, they are) why would you want to place a thermal break at every spline? If there was a point load at that location I would agree, otherwise, I don't. And, there are some panel connections(most actually) that don't use 2x lumber for the connection(or the connection is insulated).
In general SIP's and plumbing mix like drinking and driving. If a wall has plumbing, probably better off with conventional framing.
If your design has plumbing in a wall(and I agree, avoid), I wouldn't condem the entire wall when just boxing out a portion could solve the 'problem'.
Most SIP professionals would agree that SIP's over a truss system are a waste of money.
Yup. The 'S' stands for Structural.
Since the SIP (remember 4' wide with 2X6 splines) are much stronger than the truss system, the trusses are not needed. The SIP's may require a mid span beam depending on the geometry of your plan.
Yes, as long as the panel spans the entire distance(4' x 8' panels, need not apply). |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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