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farmerellis
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/17/2008 12:10 AM |
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Hello,
I am designing an 1.5 story, 800 s/f addition to our 1800 s/f baloon framed farmhouse in Westcentral Wisconsin. I would like to employ passive solar heating to the addition with a small woodstove for overcast stretches. I am leaning towards building with SIPs currently, but have also been looking into the concrete version--SCIPs.
I have some fairly basic questions that I would appreciate some help/guidance with:
1. I am drawn toward the thermal mass capability of SCIPs with a passive solar design, but have read that they are not great for colder climates. Is this accurate, and are there other differences between the two technologies that I should consider? I have not been able to find as much information about SCIPs online.
2. Since this is an addition, I am concerned with how a SIP built structure would be attached to the current house. Would I have to use SIPs on the house side, or could I use them on three sides and have an open attachment to the house?
3. Being that I plan on building with some type of panel material, are there some specific design considerations I should be taking in to account in order to arrive at the most economically effecient end product? Presently the addition design is a 24' by 24' footprint on a concrete slab with 2.5 stories and a kneewall.
4. Is there a maximum window to panel ratio that needs to be considered? I would like the south side of the addtion to have considerable glazing for passive solar heating.
Thanks in advance.
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farmerellis
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/17/2008 12:12 AM |
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| I just found the "optimizing for SIPs" section on this site, so question 3 can be disregarded unless someone has any additional thoughts they want to add. |
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CharlesSSF
Registered Users
Posts:21
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| 02/17/2008 1:05 PM |
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Farmerellis,
I would strongly suggest the use of Steel-skinned SIPs over Concrete. For one, the weight of Steel Panels make them considerably more manageable and won't need special tools or equipment to erect. Two or three people can easily erect two-story Steel SIPs. Also, shipping cost will be lowered because of the weight factor. I can't comment on the Cold Weather aspect of the Concrete SIPs. However, Solar panels go well with any SIPs System for a Truely "Green" Building.
2.We have done 2 addition projects using SIPs. You do not need all four sides to be SIPs. I would need to know a little about your existing structure to provide the right advice on how to connect and assemble your wall and roof panels however.
3. If you plan on using, which I also suggest, a 4' wide panel; then a 24'by 24' plan is perfect to size so that you don't have any wasted panels. Furthermore, a deminsion divisble by two on two sides is also nice because you can use one panel cut in half to complete each wall and when you assemble your roof panels, you will will need no extra panels or make any cuts to create a 1' overhang on each side.
4. As far as window size, that will really depend on your local building code. SIPs are stronger than stick framing but with the snow drifts you all get I would consider getting strong, impact windows depending on the size we are talking about. (????)
I hope that helps and I can provide other info, or detail let me know.
Charles
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farmerellis
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/17/2008 6:29 PM |
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Charles,
I know next to nothing about Steel SIPs. Would you suggest using them over the wood panels as well? The reason I was looking into concrete was for their thermal mass capabilities. Passive solar design requires a significant amount of thermal mass in order to store daytime heat for nighttime use. We have no intention of doing much active solar (panels) right now, but that could change.
Thanks for the information.
Chris |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1279
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| 02/17/2008 8:49 PM |
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Posted By CharlesSSF on 02/17/2008 1:05 PM
I would strongly suggest the use of Steel-skinned SIPs over Concrete. For one, the weight of Steel Panels make them considerably more manageable and won't need special tools or equipment to erect. Two or three people can easily erect two-story Steel SIPs. Also, shipping cost will be lowered because of the weight factor.
So, your arguments are weight, 'special tools', and shipping? Playing OSB Devils Advocate, weight is a factor(for ease of installation), however, 'Special Tools' and shipping are not. Installing any type of panel may require a method of removing foam, and any framer can cut an OSB SIP. Shipping is usually by loaded mile(not weight), so no advantage there.
3. If you plan on using, which I also suggest, a 4' wide panel; then a 24'by 24' plan is perfect to size so that you don't have any wasted panels. Furthermore, a deminsion divisble by two on two sides is also nice because you can use one panel cut in half to complete each wall and when you assemble your roof panels, you will will need no extra panels or make any cuts to create a 1' overhang on each side.
I guess that it would depend on if he is planning on using 'raw' panels or fabricated panels. With fabricated panels, size is not an issue.
Now, thermal mass. Please don't consider a concrete skinned SIP as a method of 'mass'. You'll need much more 'mass'(exposed to the interior) than something 'skinned' with a concrete product. I would recommend using SIPS for the exterior walls, and providing another form of 'mass' inside the SIP thermal barrier.
Good Luck! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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farmerellis
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/17/2008 10:30 PM |
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I was planning on pricing out both raw and fabricated panels but am leaning towards fabricated.
As for thermal mass, I am just going off the claims I've read on several manufacturers' websites. For example, Sipcrete makes the following claim:
SIPCRETE Compatibility with Solar and BTU Management Systems. lends itself ideally to a multitude of active and passive solar and other energy applications. The internal concrete Thermal Mass of SIPCRETE provides an excellent storage medium for heat from internal loads or from passive solar gain during the heating season. This energy is stored and re-radiated passively to assist in providing a stable internal environment.
Others make similar claims. I was planning on placing some thermal mass inside the addition (in the form of a rock or waterwall) but it would not have to be as substantial if these claims are true. I'll have to crunch the numbers to find out exactly how much mass is needed. Right now I'm just trying to figure out if the mass provided by the concrete skins makes them a more economical and efficient choice for my purposes compared to osb or steel. Perhaps the numbers need to be crunched before I can find this out.
Chris |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:716
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| 02/18/2008 8:19 AM |
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To All:
Steel SIPs are also priced out to the nearest 1/2 foot of length for pricing, not the case for OSB |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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CharlesSSF
Registered Users
Posts:21
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| 02/18/2008 10:51 AM |
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Farmerellis,
Yes I would choose the Steel SIPs over OSB SIPs because of the mentioned points above relative to concrete SIPs. To elaborate, the weight difference is usually about 1 lb. per sq.ft. Furthermore, with MOST OSB SIPs, they need a spline between each panel; they are used to connect the panels which brings extra cost with labor and material, and causes thermal breaks in the foam. With Steel SIPs, the foam is continuous throughout your walls, and throughout your roof panels. Athough before I get jumped all over for not making it clear, there is a single break between the walls and roof panels that goes along with any SIP engineered home.
Also, the applying of a vapor rap as used before finishing material is placed on OSB panels is not needed which on a structure as high as your is helpful in the end when calculating your final costs.
As far as special tools, I was referring to the need of a forklift or other costly mechanical equipment to erect the walls. Although I do suggest in most cases using a man lift or other bucket crane type lift for the roof panels assmembly depending on circumstances.
To make another correction, you will NOT need to remove ANY foam for the installation of ANY part of a Steel Sip Sytem from erection to window and door installation. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are wrong.
Also, any framer can also cut into a Steel Skin SIP. They only difference is a simple change of a blade in your saw.
Charles
727-831-2805
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GeorgiaTom
Registered Users
Posts:114
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| 02/18/2008 11:20 AM |
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Posted By CharlesSSF on 02/18/2008 10:51 AM
Farmerellis,
Yes I would choose the Steel SIPs over OSB SIPs because of the mentioned points above relative to concrete SIPs.
Charlie;
Did you ever build with OSB sips?
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jmagill
Registered Users
Posts:78
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| 02/18/2008 11:57 AM |
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Sipcrete would do well with thermal mass because of the thickness of the concrete on the interior, pricing , availability and a compentant crew will be your biggest concerns.
You stated that you will have a concrete floor. Its size will dictate how much more thermal mass you need. Also if it is passive or has a way to move heat stored to other areas of the home. Too much mass is not always good.
The other way to look at it is retaining the heat that you gain and have stored in the thermal mass. With OSB Sips you can go thicker( more R-value) and retain more of the heat you have gained from the sun.
We live in a OSB SIP home with a concrete slab. On sunny winter days the heat never comes on and we often open a window. We like the OSB sips. They were easy to install and only needed a crane to install the roof panels. We needed it for the beams anyways. All splines, screws, caulk, foam was part of the package, no extra costs. |
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wes
Registered Users
Posts:327
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| 02/18/2008 8:17 PM |
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CharlesSSF,
I have never used steel SIPS. But after nearly 30 years of building with almost any other form of off site component construction technology, including OSB SIPS. I can assure you that, at some point in time, you WILL have to modify a panel in the field. I don't care how good the engineering is, or the mfg, or the site crews. At some point, something will not work, and you will have to correct it. Your statement that 'you will NOT have to remove ANY foam at ANY time' is horse crap. Stop trying to sell every person who posts on this site. |
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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CharlesSSF
Registered Users
Posts:21
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| 02/27/2008 4:06 PM |
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Modify the panel, by cutting the skin and the foam, yes Wes you are right. However, I was relating to the installation of windows and doors. In Steel SIP Construction, you do not need to remove foam from the panel other than when you also remove the Skin to make your rough openings. The C channel, or track, goes over the skin and foam, unlike in OSB SIPS where the 2 by 4 or 2 by 6 is inserted "in" the skins to attach the windows.
And just because I prefer a particular type of SIP over others, don't get uncomfortable. I am satisfied that one would choose any SIP Engineering over conventional framing. If I can point out advantages of products, I am goiing to Wes.
Charles |
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SteelSipMan
Registered Users
Posts:49
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| 02/27/2008 5:34 PM |
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Wes;
Charles is constantly back-peddling after his comments, he comes with no experience or authority |
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creativepanels
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 03/04/2008 9:46 PM |
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Best way to design is to use SIP/OSB skin for cost effectiveness. Passive Solar is good, but the concept you are using needs to be addressed by design. What you want is a well insulated exterior wall skin. Your solar passive wall should be an interior south facing wall with glazing (No Low E) that allows light/heat to collect on wall. Now the exterior wall panel will hold the day heat stored on the interior wall for the evening. I have seen designs where there is a 36" to 48" entry hall & south facing glazing. I could go on for a long time, but everything depends on space usage, area you are heating and location of property on global climate curve. A well insulated wall with a high efficient gas stove(new ones are 94% rated) will really all you need!
My house is all SIP, Fresno, Ca area (extreme heat summer & pretty damp cold winters). The Sip panels seem to work better in cold weather (This is shown on RControl charts) but very happy with the reflection heat factors.
Here is my suggestion
SIP/ OSB with reflective air bubble thermal blanket (1/8" to 1/4" thick )
The Sip Panel with 5 1/2" CORE Poly-R22.6
Reflective Bubble on exterior of sip-use 1/4" spacer strips R15.4
Exterior Siding (Concrete Lap, wood, or stucco)R 1.3
1/2" dry wall interior R1.4
Total mass of wall R40.7--pretty good for any part of country!
Go to my website: CreativePanels.com and email me and I'll send you a pdf design sheet.
Good Luck and Go Green!
Jeff
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