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hector8762
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Posts:12
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| 02/21/2008 10:48 AM |
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OK, I know there has been a contentious thread or two on this topic. I have no interest in sparking a similar discussion. What I do want is any firsthand information people may have with SIP's and sound.
I'm in the final stages of selecting an enclosure for my timber frame home. I'm pretty close to a busy road, so sound transmission is an issue. That drives me towards ICF. However, getting the frame weathered in as quicklly as possible is also a prime objective. That drives me towards SIP. I'll be hanging fiber cement siding on the house. That will help a little with the sound, but not as much as a brick veneer.
My questions for you folks are....
1. If you have a SIP home near a low-frequency noise source (traffic or aircraft), how much of that noise transmits through the SIP's?
2. What steps have people done to (succesfully) lower the sound transmission of SIP's? Does the addition of a couple extra layers of drywall, or the use of Green Glue have a significant effect?
Again, I have no interest in a general debate of one technology vs anonther. I just want to gather enough information to know what to do in my own home.
Thanks!! |
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vhehn
Registered Users
Posts:104
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| 02/21/2008 2:21 PM |
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| my last house was a sip house and it was very quiet. wind noise and other outside noise was not a problem. |
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hector8762
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 02/21/2008 3:17 PM |
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| Thanks vhehn! Was there traffic noise near your old house? Or were you in a pretty quiet area? |
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woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 02/22/2008 5:28 PM |
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| sips are not good with sound (low frec. sound is real prob). Just keep looking on old post a band had a real problem about a year ago here and if you look it up I think you will see the truth. Sounds transmits like a drum. I will watch this so don't BS this guy . |
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Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
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tgorle
Registered Users
Posts:53
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| 02/26/2008 6:32 PM |
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SIPS have an STC of 22.
See HERE:
http://www.pbspanel.com/Tech%20Bulletins/Tech%20Bull%2025a%20sound%20trasmission.pdf
A typical 2x4 wall with 1/2" drywall on either side has an STC of 34. Recording studios are usually built to an STC of 64+.
SIP thermal insulation is fantastic, but their rigidity and lack of mass are horrible for stopping sound.
My two-story building shell acts like an amplifier when a drum kit is played inside. I can stand upstairs and hear everything going on in the neighborhood... mowers, cars, dogs, etc...
Green glue costs about the same per square foot as using RSIC clips, so I'm trying to find out which would work better with two layers of 5/8" drywall for killing some of the sound transmission.
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:754
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| 02/26/2008 7:08 PM |
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I have seen some claims with steel SIPs having an stc rating of 50 when using a 1-1/2" steel furring channel and 1/2" drywall. The air space may be the reason for isoloating the sound transmission
Tgorle ..... is only in shell stage I would advise an airspace with some steel RC-1 channel, that is specifically designed to reduce soun transmission. 2 layers of 5/8" will help but not as effective as a break in the material,
Same reason insulated glass works for sound too |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 02/26/2008 8:08 PM |
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Posted By tgorle on 02/26/2008 6:32 PM
SIPS have an STC of 22.
A typical 2x4 wall with 1/2" drywall on either side has an STC of 34. Recording studios are usually built to an STC of 64+.
SIP thermal insulation is fantastic, but their rigidity and lack of mass are horrible for stopping sound.
My two-story building shell acts like an amplifier when a drum kit is played inside. I can stand upstairs and hear everything going on in the neighborhood... mowers, cars, dogs, etc...
Green glue costs about the same per square foot as using RSIC clips, so I'm trying to find out which would work better with two layers of 5/8" drywall for killing some of the sound transmission.
You need a dead air space and not just add more dry wall .
I am not a sound expert but if you think of a sip that is acting like a drum skin , just adding to the skin will not stop it from transmitting sound. An air space that is free floating from the other service is what you are looking for. And mass will do more then all of the other stuff we just talked about. That is why icfs work well at this at a smaller price tag. ( Hay it's just the truth) Sips have other qualities that out do icfs also , this is a give and take of real world physics.
Sound good to you.
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Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
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tgorle
Registered Users
Posts:53
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| 02/27/2008 1:29 AM |
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Posted By hector8762 on 02/21/2008 10:48 AM
OK, I know there has been a contentious thread or two on this topic. I have no interest in sparking a similar discussion. What I do want is any firsthand information people may have with SIP's and sound.
I'm in the final stages of selecting an enclosure for my timber frame home. I'm pretty close to a busy road, so sound transmission is an issue. That drives me towards ICF. However, getting the frame weathered in as quicklly as possible is also a prime objective. That drives me towards SIP. I'll be hanging fiber cement siding on the house. That will help a little with the sound, but not as much as a brick veneer.
My questions for you folks are....
1. If you have a SIP home near a low-frequency noise source (traffic or aircraft), how much of that noise transmits through the SIP's?
2. What steps have people done to (succesfully) lower the sound transmission of SIP's? Does the addition of a couple extra layers of drywall, or the use of Green Glue have a significant effect?
Again, I have no interest in a general debate of one technology vs anonther. I just want to gather enough information to know what to do in my own home.
Thanks!! I've spent some time researching my posts from 2 years ago in the "SIPS talk" days, as well as an AV forum where Ted White, proponent of Green Glue, frequents regularly.
Ted speculates that adding Green Glue sandwiched with 5/8" gypsum to an interior OSB SIP would probably raise the STC 7 to 9 points. So, it would seem a second 5/8" layer on the inside would raise the STC to be roughly equivalent to a standard stick frame 2x4 wall of STC 34. The two layers of Green Glue and double 5/8" gypsum will total about $1.50 sqft for materials alone.
But, a far more effective sound control would entail building an entirely new independent wall & ceiling framework within the SIP shell to decouple it. Steel studs on 24" centers dampen sound far better than 16" centers or wood studs.
But, here we go again... the last thing anyone who erects a SIPS building wants to hear is that getting decent sound isolation means building independent rooms within their shell. The one unanticipated advantage is the ease of running electrical, plumbing, and HVAC that can hide in the new air space cavities created.
Obviously, had I been informed of the sound properties of SIPS beforehand, I never would have used them for my particular intended purpose. My shell was erected in 2005, and I'm still $20,000 away from having the money to soundproof it adequately for band rehearsals. Ironically, the shell was only $15,000 in the first place, and it went up in 4 days. And here it sits...
So, the moral of the story is this: If you live anywhere that requires amazing insulation against summer heat or winter freezing, and sound transmission will never be a concern, build yourself a SIPS house with one layer of drywall you can paint, and move in.
But, if you're in the city, and anyone within two blocks has a dog that barks at night when you'd rather be sleeping, build conventional.
;-) |
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Matt Phelps
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 02/27/2008 9:23 AM |
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To answer your questions, SIP's have had few test done for Sound Transmitting Characteristics (STC). Their is actual an entire field of study on this issue and the International Building Code (IBC) has developed standards for STC for various types of structures. The STC is tested using using a method contained in ASTM E 90 (for air borne noises, like the ones you wrote about in your post), and ASTM E 492 (impact noise).
Most SIP's have good STC scores (above 50) for air borne noises, except for low impedance noise (like that train rumbling by) and very low STC, more correctly called Impact Insulation Class (IIC) scores (< 40) for impact sounds like people walking on the floor above.
What little research has been done on this issue focused on just adding additional layers of drywall which did have some success in reaching a IIC score > 45 (45 is the minimum IIC score for use in a party wall in multi-family structures according to Section 1207 of the IBC).
A product that may provide you the solution you seek is called Quite Rock 510. It hangs like drywall, but has an STC score in the range of 49-68 depending on the type of installation. You can get all the details at www.quitesolution.com
I hope this answers your question.
Best of Luck,
Matt B. Phelps, P.E.
mphelps@apec-llc.com
512/670-9400 |
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hector8762
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 02/27/2008 9:56 AM |
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Matt,
Thank you very much for the reply concerning SIP sound transmission. Reliable data is hard to find and analysis is difficult. I perform structural analysis for a living, but acoustic analysis is a different ball of wax. The combination of air bourne and structural transmission paths, along with the differences in stiffness/mass and damping attenuation, make this subject a real head-scratcher.
The only SIP data that I've found is the R-Control data sheet. They list an STC of 29 for a no-frills installation.
http://www.bigskyrcontrol.com/downloads/literature/SIP_Product_testing_Chart.pdf
If you have additional SIP information, I'd be very interested in seeing it. An STC of 50 sounds pretty high.
I guess that brings up another complication...... STC is just one curve fit used to boil sound attenuation down to a single number. These curves were designed for interior walls, where mid-range sounds (like speech) are most inportant. For my exterior walls, the OITC curves are more relevant. But OITC data is even more scarce that STC. The IIC that you mentioned is news to me.
Yeah, the quietrock products perform well. But the cost is prohibitive. I'd rather just green glue the sheetrock myself.
Thanks again for the reply. |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:285
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| 02/27/2008 11:40 AM |
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I have seen Acoustiblok demonstrated at trade shows. One roll 30' x 4.5' (135 SF) costs $389.00 or $2.88 SF. The more you buy, the lower the price. Here is the web site: www.acoustiblok.com In the demos, this product was very effective in blocking sound transmission. Home theaters could really use a product like this.
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hector8762
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 02/27/2008 2:27 PM |
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Woulfcc and tgorle,
Thanks for your input. This topic is so difficult to get a handle on. These transmission losses are not linear, so you can't add solutions in a piecemeal fashion. One layer of drywall with green glue may give you an additional 7-9 points of attenuation, but that doesn't mean that two layers of GG and drywall will give you 14-18 points. For folks that are used to solving problems with research and analysis, it's a d@mn frustrating problem. Unless you can find test data on the exact wall configuration you want, you just have to guess what its performance might be.
Unfortunately, ICF may not be an option for me at this point. (My foundation was sized for SIP walls) I do have some options, but most of them are a little looney. My favorite is the idea of forming up some plywood and 2x4 panels and filling them with sand. I can get nearly the same mass as a concrete wall, with the additional damping of the loose-grain fill. The problem, of course, is how to move several yards of sand. I'll probably come to my senses and just stack all the drywall I can on the interior of SIP's. Traffic is low-frequency sound, mass is the key to low-frequency noise, and drywall is cheap mass.
Anyway, thanks again for your help! |
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tgorle
Registered Users
Posts:53
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| 02/29/2008 7:43 PM |
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Hector, the main thing is that now you know what you're getting into.
Sand-fill would require you to run conduit for electrical and plumbing in advance of fill, or fur out conventional walls for those runs (which you could also do over a SIP to create dead air space before a couple layers of drywall. Sand is better for sound, but I'm not sure you'd like the R-factor... or the mess if the bottom of a wall blows out any time in the future. In any case, good luck.
Just for fun, try google for SIP STC and see what you get... not much.
I don't think this industry has made any real effort to measure and publish STC figures.
Aside from the following PDF, I found some other forum discussion links with the same degree of associated misinformation and hyperbole, mainly because someone quoted "in the 50's" as if it was the standard STC range for SIPS.
R-Control SIP and one
layer 1/2" Gypsum
STC = 29
==============
R-Control SIP and one
layer 1/2" Gypsum
using Resilient
Channels and 1/2"
Fiberglass
STC = 39
===============
R-Control SIP and two
layers 5/8" Type X
Gypsum on one side.
Two layers 5/8" Type X
Gypsum separated
using 1 1/2" Z-Furring
Channels and 1" sound
attenuating fiberglass
batt opposite side
STC = 51
(*This 51 STC figure is totally irrelevant unless you're using a SIP as an internal dividing wall, in which case you'd be WAY ahead framing a 2x6 wall and using the same extra components with fiberglass to obtain a higher STC at lower cost)
MLV is one of the least efficient methods of stopping sound on a cost per square foot basis.
Build internal walls with 2x4's, fiberglass, and sandwich 2 layers of 5/8" type X with Green Glue. The fact it makes electrical and plumbing easier is a bonus.
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tgorle
Registered Users
Posts:53
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| 03/01/2008 11:21 PM |
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Actual Technical Bulletin for PBS SIPs Sound Transmission:
http://www.pbspanel.com/Tech%20Bulletins/Tech%20Bull%2025a%20sound%20trasmission.pdf
Most people will use a single 5/8" sheet of drywall, and get an STC of 29.
But, even the most elaborate double partition wall example shown here is only STC 54, which takes two complete SIP walls spaced 1" apart after adding 6 layers of 5/8" drywall. That partition is 17-3/4" thick!!! Not to mention it costs a fortune.
Ironically, 1 layer of 5/8" drywall on either side of a 2x3 staggered stud wall with 3" fiberglass (only 7-1/4" overall thickness) would have the same STC of 54. Courtesy of USG SA924 Drywall Framed Systems brochure.
Now, ask yourself how can 2 overall layers of drywall with 2x3's can equal the performance of 6 layers with SIPs???
Because SIPs panels resonate if not amplify sound.
SIPs obviously kill the capacity of gypsum's mass to function as a sound stopper.
The end. |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 03/02/2008 6:22 AM |
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Tgorle cited an interesting site. But I've seen -- and that site references -- anecdotal statements that SIP homes are percieved as quieter. And that quiet is a significant benefit that I seek.
How do you balance the perception and the tests or the perceptions of those who find them quieter and those who don't? I don't think it's an issue of bad faith.
Does the test's 125 - 4000 Hz range not include the frequency range that annoys people? In vision, there are known groups that do not respond to some frequencies of light in the same way that the general population does. Are there similar sub-populations that percieve frequency ranges differently?
The postings suggest that several of you know this technical area. Even if you cannot cite to studies, can you speculate on the inconsistency between the anecdotal statements and the tests?
In the concrete SIPs thread at http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/forumid/5/postid/32994/view/topic/Default.aspx
slenzen posted a list of firms using what seems like a site assembled concrete SIP: A foam core with a steel grid spaced on each side onto which shotcrete (?) is applied. How quiet would you expect a wall to be if it's made up of several inches of concrete on each side of a foam core?
VERY respectfully,
Larry
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:754
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woulfcc
Registered Users
Posts:185
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| 03/02/2008 8:19 PM |
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I would look up a 5/8 wall using hat channel stud with a bottom and top C channel spaced 1/4"from the sip.
If you keep it 1/4" away from the sips it will give it the sound barrier you might be looking for with the space that is practical in your house.
This will also not mess up the electrical and plumbing and finish work that still needs to be done.
You might only have to do the walls on house on the side of the low freq. noise , Road , rock band....
I have no ease answerers for you here. |
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Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c. |
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sled4fun
Registered Users
Posts:14
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| 03/03/2008 11:44 AM |
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| I have a 2500SF single level on slab 6.5" walls 11.5" roof panels with a lot of windows. I think the house is very quiet. We really notice how quiet it is during a heavy rain. I have a really heavy front door and another think noticed is when you shut/slab a door the house does not shake or resonate like a stick house. Much more solid feel / sound to it. |
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tgorle
Registered Users
Posts:53
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| 03/03/2008 7:53 PM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 03/02/2008 6:22 AM
Tgorle cited an interesting site. But I've seen -- and that site references -- anecdotal statements that SIP homes are percieved as quieter. And that quiet is a significant benefit that I seek.
How do you balance the perception and the tests or the perceptions of those who find them quieter and those who don't? I don't think it's an issue of bad faith.
Does the test's 125 - 4000 Hz range not include the frequency range that annoys people? In vision, there are known groups that do not respond to some frequencies of light in the same way that the general population does. Are there similar sub-populations that percieve frequency ranges differently?
The postings suggest that several of you know this technical area. Even if you cannot cite to studies, can you speculate on the inconsistency between the anecdotal statements and the tests?
In the concrete SIPs thread at http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/forumid/5/postid/32994/view/topic/Default.aspx
slenzen posted a list of firms using what seems like a site assembled concrete SIP: A foam core with a steel grid spaced on each side onto which shotcrete (?) is applied. How quiet would you expect a wall to be if it's made up of several inches of concrete on each side of a foam core?
VERY respectfully,
Larry
My building is the typical 1/2" OSB sandwiched foam SIP; 6-1/2" walls and 10-1/2" roof panels...
The building thunders like a drum when you smack it with the heel of your hand.
It makes sense that any SIP lined with shotcrete would perform better, and I'd trade the R-Factor of my building for the STC factor of foam sandwiched between several inches of concrete in a nanosecond.
I'm looking at spending upwards of $8,000 to acheive an STC of 56 just to build two rooms inside a 768 sf upper story SIP shell. To acheive this STC, I can't physically touch the SIPs. This requires floating new floor joists on rubber that will support the new walls, and framing false ceilings to sit on each rooms walls...
This of course ruins the presumed cathedral height and aesthetics of seeing a beautiful 32' beam spanning the ridge of my music studio 13' above. Those dreams are over.
This thread will prevent all concerned from making the same mistake I did.
I trusted my SIP company. They withheld their knowledge of STC information.
Do your research in advance, and best of luck to you.
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bpickartz
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 03/03/2008 8:25 PM |
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| I only have real life experience with urethane sips and haven't found the homes to be any noisier than a stick-built home. I have a couple of comments, though. Are the above tests done with EPS? If so, are there tests for urethane panels and would they be any different since urethane is a denser, closed cell foam? Also, there may be a perception of more sound transmission since many of the SIPS are used with timber frame and log homes, with vaulted ceilings, and often a second floor deck of just 2X decking, a noisier home by design than a typical conventionally framed home. I'm a firm believer in SIPS as a better, more sustainable way to build, whether EPS or urethane, and believe that they are being under-utilized. Whether it is fear of the unknown or because there isn't enough data to prove/disprove these issues, I'm not sure, but what we need to do is find out and work to overcome them. |
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