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Green1
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 04/28/2008 8:41 AM |
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| I will have to side with Chris,a lot of being green is doing the reasearch for the best materal for the area you live in,As far as the best thermal value,lowest overall maintance,and a suppler that is close to your project,and finally that provides a warrenty that you can trust,These are just some of the items that stress in my classes and my buildings,as per green buildings guidelines..................Ralph Locke.....www.Flagreenbuilder.com.....3526691755 |
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 04/30/2008 2:02 AM |
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I think that anyone would agree that a product is "green" if it utilizes natural resources efficiently, and does the minimal amount of harm to the environment. A product coming from China can be equally as green as anything produced in the US.
Dick Mills |
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chuck07
Registered Users
Posts:31
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| 04/30/2008 1:18 PM |
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Posted By Dick Mills on 04/30/2008 2:02 AM
I think that anyone would agree that a product is "green" if it utilizes efficiently, and does the minimal amount of harm to the environment. A product coming from China can be equally as green as anything produced in the US.
Dick Mills This really depends on one's definition of "green". As far as color goes I'm sure they could just use the same paint. :-)
If green is based on something similar to the LEED points green rating per USBGC (http://www.usgbc.org) this is highley unlikely at best. These are the primary components of a green building per USGBC:
LEED-certified buildings:
- Lower operating costs and increased asset value.
- Reduce waste sent to landfills.
- Conserve energy and water.
- Healthier and safer for occupants.
- Reduce harmful greenhouse gas emissions.
- Qualify for tax rebates, zoning allowances and other incentives in hundreds of cities.
- Demonstrate an owner's commitment to environmental stewardship and social responsibility.
You cannot use less energy by bringer a similar product from the other side of the world. It is also to provide a healthier and safer environment. You cannot ignore that as being a serious risk with Chinese products.
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Dick Mills
Registered Users
Posts:124
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| 04/30/2008 2:09 PM |
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Chuch07,
You seem pretty confident about that. And I would agree with you as long as the products are very similar.
But these aren't similar products. One is a SIP panel, the other is a concrete skinned panel with a foamed concrete core. And, they probably weigh on the order of 18 to 19 pounds per square foot vs. maybe 2.5 to 3.5 pounds for SIPs.
The fact that they are different products doesn't affect how "green" they are as long as they provide similar thermal properties to the structure being built. The amount of energy and natural resources necessary to make and deliver them does.
How confident are you now?
Dick Mills |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 04/30/2008 4:33 PM |
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Dick,
I'd not be comfortable given the lead time for a replacement panel if there was any problem, but the product is interesting. Do you have any idea of its performance as compared to a SIP?
Very respectfully,
Larry
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 04/30/2008 5:15 PM |
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Posted By chuck07 on 04/30/2008 1:18 PM
You cannot use less energy by bringer a similar product from the other side of the world. It is also to provide a healthier and safer environment. You cannot ignore that as being a serious risk with Chinese products.
You might look up the Emma Maersk. They, unfortunately, are making it very efficient and affordable to flood our markets with their cheap stuff. And, there is no doubt that the energy used, per pound, is less than a much shorter shipment via truck in the CONUS. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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tmsu
Registered Users
Posts:43
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| 04/30/2008 10:46 PM |
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| Holy Crap! I wasn't really reading this fthread, just kind of skimming. Are people on this forum serious about buying panels from China? Seriously? Again, I write, Holy Crap! Let's assume that you can get it for less money (cheaper). Let's also assume the materials are comparable in quality. I cannot imagine attempting this. This is NOT a car or toy for my nephew to play with. Come on, you cannot be seriously considering purchasing this from China. You will be hard to find someone who is more "free market, capitalist" than me. However, there is a time when common sense takes over and it has nothing to do with helping out the American manunfacturer. |
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chuck07
Registered Users
Posts:31
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| 05/01/2008 12:24 AM |
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Dick,
I'm still quite confident for several reasons.
My folks recently built a house with concrete skinned foam panels (just walls) obtained from a nearby concrete yard. I seriously doubt this product from china would be cheaper when you consider a permitable project that could be built in a timely manner with sufficient hope the house stands and performs satisfactorily. What do you do when the product doesn't perform
I have seen several projects order by the container from china (for granite countertops or some other typically high dollar to volume non-critical product) at significant savings. This is different - it is an innovative (as claimed) relativley bulky per cost, critical building component. I have never seen those attributes well served by importing from china. China is not much of an innovator (just an effective copier and capitalistic). I think the key missing ingredient in quality control from china is there is not a legal system in place there where when people are injured/killed by negligence there are lawyers standing by to sue the crap out of and destroy the offender.
The idea of china and green products is an oxymoron in my experience. I have made a number of work trips to various parts of china and each one has taken me at least the next week statewide to clear my lungs. They have the most polluted cities I have ever visited. I would like to hear from someone who has actually used a critical building system from china successfully and cost effectively. We tranported all our items via ship and it is a lot more difficult (and expensive) process than one might think. When containers/items get dropped and the product gets destroyed the fun begins. I cannot imagine a construction project and schedule that could put up with these issues and really experience any cost savings.
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 05/01/2008 2:32 PM |
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In my pursuit of the being to build the best home built, I have been directed to the works of Joseph Istiburek. I will share his insights into what makes, "Green".
1. Healthy, safe & comfortable, (You do not know. It's not as if the Chinese are reknowned for their concerns over using deadly byproducts in their manufacturing process)
2. Durable (Again, you do not know. Where are the products already in use and what is their track record? It's not as if the Chinese are open with their test data)
3. Energy efficient (Ditto)
4. Resource efficent (Not if it has to be shipped over the big blue pond)
5. Affordable, buildable & maintainable (Maybe, but given the other concerns you would be better off building out of recycled cardboard. If we really are looking for groovy, new, untested methodologies...)
Now, since you do not want us to wander off the reservation, I will not discuss the concerns over supporting a communist region that competes in the world market by exploiting slave labor to keep its pricing disproportionally low. I won't go into the massive facelift China has had to undergo to look good to the rest of the planet, with regards to pollution to prepare for the Olympics. I won't tell you about folks trying hard to decide if they will even participate in the Olympics given China's track record of militaristic abuse of its own people, Tibet, Taiwan, etc.
I do not know the words to Kumbiyaa (SP) nor do I hug trees, but man are seriously considering buying from these folks. If it's a serious cost savings you are looking for, do a little of the labor yourself, use a flat panel cabinet instead of a raised panel, do something, but don't strengthen these folks by endorsing their methods.
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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Rosanne Katilius
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 05/02/2008 9:56 AM |
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Hi Mike, Thank you for sharing the information! I suppose questions you may want answered are:
1. Is there any testing of the panels?
2. How long has the product been around & tested?
3. Is testing done by a 3rd party?
4. Will it meet your code requirements (how difficult will it be to get that done)?
5. What is the R-value but more important air infiltration.?
6. How is electric run?
7. If there is a mistake with the panels, can they be altered on site?
8. Can you research the company on BBB or similar?
9. How will the company be held accountable if there is a problem..meaning what is your recourse of action?
10. Is there off-gasing?
Our company has been making roof/wall panels for 25yrs. They are cut with a Hundegger PBA machine from CAD programs so they are acurate. If something is by chance wrong, they can be altered on site or we will ship the correction. Our panels are 3rd party tested every quarter and we also test them monthly ourselves to ensure a quality product. They will assemble just as quickly as the panels on the video (which seems to be very important to you) and we keep Americans working. We welcome people to tour our factory & meet our crew! Do what ever you want just BE CAREFUL & Good Luck! |
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newsie23
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 05/02/2008 2:59 PM |
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| A few years ago, I used a Nascorwall sip system and their TJI sip floor; and jacked up the existing building for the new ground floor. The floor and walls were cut to size (off site) and went up quickly, before the cribs were removed. The new construction is totally silent and air tght! I bring in outside air through a 4" duct to the heat chamber (not the comustion chamber) of my wood stove. The room air is fresh; the combustion air is from the room. Otherwise, fresh air comes from opening the windows ie when heat isn't required. The sun doesn't warm the walls during the day. The ceiling, or roof (in your case) coukd be made with the TJI (floor) roof system. I can't imaginethis system coming from China - its volume is large, and the weght is light. There should be many sources of the stryform locally. My local TJI and Truss supplier prefabbed everything. The cost (then) was about 10% more than the materials for 'stick' construction. My contractor tried to talk me out of using this system, but was very pleased, when he finished. Everything was square, plumb etc. |
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tmsu
Registered Users
Posts:43
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| 05/02/2008 7:03 PM |
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| My personal issue with sourcing this kind of thing from China is coordinating the delivery and negotiating through any problems. I guess if I was contractor that had some pull but as a homeowner doing it myself? No way. Can you imagine making the phone calls trying to straighten out problems. This is bad enough when my computer has a problem. No thank you. |
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