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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/01/2008 2:49 PM |
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Most people don't know to ask the right questions when they get pricing for SIPs.
OSB SIPs are sold three ways:
Panels and Accessories Only which we call a "Material Sale". The client purchases the raw product and does all the work in the field to prepare them for installation.
Cut & Scoop Package: The manufacturer or distributor (if they have a fabrication facility) will cut the package to all sizes and shapes, door and window cutouts, rake cuts and scoop the edges so the package is ready for the lumber to be installed which would be done on the job site.
RTI (Ready to Install) also called RTA (Ready to Assemble). All the work is done in the shop, Cut & Scooped and lumber installed into the panel package. The package comes out to the site, no work is required to prepare the package for installation.
The number one key to purchasing any one of the packages is to have an accurate set of shop drawings done. It is the key to the success of any SIP project. Even those who are purchasing materials only are smart to have someone who knows SIP framing systems to do a set of shop drawings for them.
Fabrication: Always question what the seller means by fabrication. Some manufacurers call a Cut & Scoop package - Fabrication. You took that bid over the next one higher up cause it appeared that you were getting a better deal only to find out that yo still have to pay to have the lumber installed into the packaage.
In comparing prices: Be sure to ask if taxes and shipping are included. Almost eveyone will not give you a firm price on either of those two items but you do need to demand that they provide you with costs that are within 5% of the final cost of sales taxes and shipping.
Lumber package: The lumber package should be included in the RTI package and listed as a separate line item. The one thing to ask, as some sellers do and some don't, which is................ Is the top and bottom plate stock included in the lumber package.
Don't accept a lumb sum price quote. This is the one item I strongly disagree with, that most estiamtors in the industry do. They will give you a lump sum price quote and then you have to read the fine print of what is and what is not included. Demand that you get line item pricing like the lumber yards provide to you. After all SIPs and ICFs are nothing more than high performance "framing" systems. Square footage of panels and price per square foot, line item counts of accessories and the price for each product, cost of shops, price of fabrication, lumber cost of the package, sales taxes and shipping should all be line item pricing. With line item pricing, you don't have to search through paragraphs to try and figure out what you are or are not getting.
In all the SIP books I've ever read, this chapter is always left out.
The Panel Guy
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EastMark
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 06/01/2008 2:59 PM |
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Great info.
Thanks Mark |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/01/2008 3:46 PM |
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The Panel Guy,
I've purchased and read:
Building with SIPs by Morley, and
Bulider's guide to SIPs by Lstiburek.
What other books on SIPs do you recommend?
Very respectfully,
Larry
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/01/2008 8:02 PM |
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Those are the two main books out there. Years a go I read a book, way before Morley came out with his, and I can't find it now. It was more of the building science of tight building envelopes but a good portion of it was dedicated to SIPs. By the way, The Panel Guy has a couple pic's in Morely's book.
The NRDC - Natural Resource Defense Council wrote an extensive book on SIPs. I thnk you can find it on their webite.
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newflowers
Registered Users
Posts:32
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| 06/02/2008 12:11 AM |
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Thanks for the excellent information. Question: when a SIP company offers "on site installation services" what does that mean? Is it individual to the company? Does that mean supply and advise, but you do the work?
The company we will most likely use (because it's the only one I have found so far) says the following on their website:
"Our SIPs are delivered to your job site as a ready-to-assemble package, with all panels cut to size, door and window openings pre-cut and lumber installed for all panel connections if you wish. A detailed set of Assembly Drawings will also ship with your package, and the panels will literally assemble by number!
We also provide on site installations of your project, contact us about more info regarding your on site installation."
When it says "if you wish" this seems to me that the extra RTA services are indeed extra. Also, I'm not sure, but I think the "provide on site installation of your project" means that this is a service that can be offered at an extra fee. Are "on site installation services" actually helping erect the building?
Am I reading this correctly? |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/02/2008 8:12 PM |
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The Panel Guy,
Thanks. The NRDC publishing a SIPs book makes sense,
but I'd never have thought of looking there. I'll check into it.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/02/2008 9:31 PM |
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newflowers,
Installation is an extra cost to the package. An RTA package does install by the numbers and is incredibly easy. Most companies will supply and advise also. I can take a crew who has never seen a SIP and by the time I show them how to assemble one corner, one window and one door opening and run them down a 20 foot wall section (talking about an RTA package) they know just about as much about installing SIPs as I've learned in the last
16 years. Roofs do take more hand holding time, but after a day, I can have that same crew installing roof packages pretty efficiently.
Sounds like you found an experienced company to work with. |
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newflowers
Registered Users
Posts:32
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| 06/02/2008 9:55 PM |
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| Thank you so much. We still have a bit to go - we're not even going to buy property until summer 09, but I wish to be well-versed about SIP house building - as much as possible for someone whose specialty is teaching writing - by the time we get there. |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/05/2008 8:23 PM |
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The Panel Guy,
Thanks for the confirmation! I searched the NRDC site and found "Efficient Wood Use in Residential Construction" (A Practical Guide to Saving Wood, Money, and Forests), but I wasn't sure it was the one that you'd intended. I'll have to order it.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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tmsu
Registered Users
Posts:43
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| 06/13/2008 10:35 AM |
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One mistake I made on my build was not making sure the foundation measurements married up with the SIP drawings. I had a little bit of "carpentry" work to do in order to make the panels come together. Not that big of deal but probably added 2 - 3 days to the installation. The roughest part was the roof. I have a hip roof with a small gable at each end. The SIP company made all the cuts so they would fit together but in constructing the house, some of the measurements were slightly off. Any builder will tell you a 1/2" grows as the house goes up. Anyway, just food for thought.
By the way, these were MY mistakes not the SIP company's |
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EastMark
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 06/15/2008 6:26 PM |
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I wonder the process of taking it from rough openings/scoop to installing 2X material ready for actual window installation.
How deep are they scooped and how exact is it typically ?
What other additional carpentry is tied to this way of purchasing vs. complete?
How much work/time/money is involved/saved/lost with going this route ? Any idea ?
This is great info to those nervous about using SIPS. There seems to be common questions that alot have.
Mark |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/15/2008 6:42 PM |
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Mark
scooping or grooving is 1-1/2" deep and since I am biased towards steel I'll let the others address the work/time/money/saved/lost questions.
Steel panels do not require any scooping at all, once openings are cut they get trimmed out with channels. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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tmsu
Registered Users
Posts:43
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| 06/16/2008 11:16 AM |
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Posted By EastMark on 06/15/2008 6:26 PM
I wonder the process of taking it from rough openings/scoop to installing 2X material ready for actual window installation.
How deep are they scooped and how exact is it typically ?
What other additional carpentry is tied to this way of purchasing vs. complete?
How much work/time/money is involved/saved/lost with going this route ? Any idea ?
This is great info to those nervous about using SIPS. There seems to be common questions that alot have.
Mark Mark,
Time is money, as "they" say. I didn't quote both ways (cut or not) and ordered my panels pre-cut with window openings and to specific lengths. A few things. First, the manufacturer would/will have the appropriate equipment and experience to cut fairly quickly. I visited the plant where my panels were made and it was pretty automated. My guess is, if you have time and the weather cooperates, one could do all their own field cutting but that seems to be a case by case basis. Another thing to consider if you have the company cut the panels, purchase a 'hot knife' that is designed to "scoop" the panels. Mine was only $100 but was invaluable as I made some site changes. Also, there were a few cuts where the "scoop" wasn't deep enough, so I had to get a little bit more out.
If you go with OSB SIPs, search this site for noise reduction installation. There are some helpful hints that I did not know about prior to doing my build.
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EastMark
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 06/16/2008 4:01 PM |
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Thanks
Im thinking of going cut and scoop. What the steps for a tight fit on the doors/windows from there ?
Do you feel as though your SIPS house is noisy ?
Thanks Mark |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/16/2008 4:56 PM |
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Posted By EastMark on 06/16/2008 4:01 PM
Im thinking of going cut and scoop. What the steps for a tight fit on the doors/windows from there ?
Please understand that you can't just start cutting holes in the panels, w/o considering the loads from above.
Tight fit? You need to seal the 2x material with a sealant or adhesive sealant. Foam scoops are slow and time consuming. Most fab shops use a mechanical method of removing foam. It's fast but very messy! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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tmsu
Registered Users
Posts:43
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| 06/17/2008 10:16 AM |
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Posted By EastMark on 06/16/2008 4:01 PM
Thanks
Im thinking of going cut and scoop. What the steps for a tight fit on the doors/windows from there ?
Do you feel as though your SIPS house is noisy ?
Thanks Mark First, the fit is pretty tight as is. We pounded the 2x material into place in most cases. The panel didn't bulge or anything, it was just very tight. Additionally, we used foam (purchased from the SIP manufacturer) to seal the areas where the 2x material was used as well as any and all seams.
As was mentioned, you cannot just cut holes in your panels but I am sure you are aware of this. Unless you are an engineer and have experience in designing houses and calculating loads, I would recommend having the design of the house engineered with the appropriate loads by a professional. I had architectual designs drawn up and then passed them on to the SIP manufacturer. They have an engineering department (or at least one licensed engineer anyway) that took those drawings and did all the SIP design with the appropriate load calculations. We worked together in the areas where the design and appropriate load calculations didn't jive. Finally, my building inspector (who was very good to work with) required the company stamp and sign-off on their drawings (of course the panels had to be stamped as well). He also took the time to call the engineer and discuss a few concerns he (inspector) had.
As far as noisy or sound issues, there is only one. The SIP panel has a hollow sound to it if you knock on it (knuckes, hammer, etc.) Another thing I have noticed is that I can here my refrigerator in my garage running in the room (bathroom) that shares the same wall. However, you cannot hear the wind blowing outside, even if it is blowing very hard. In any event, Chris (the Steel SIP guy) along with another Poster, posted some tips to employ in order to avoid the sound issues I have. Unfortunately for me, I am beyond that point (um, finished with the house).
One interesting thing that I have noticed is that I have not seen any cracks in my drywall or nail/screw pops. I know that this is a normal part of a new house, but we have been in it over a year and nothing. I don't know if this has to do with the SIPs, foundation or a combination of both (probable).
I am very happy with my OSB SIP home. I would highly recommend it to anyone that asks. The company I worked with was great from the design stage, to delivery, to follow up. I do not know anything about steel SIPs or concrete SIPs but there is a lot of information on here regarding them.
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