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crashkahuna
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 06/27/2008 10:51 AM |
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Would it make sense to use sips as floor panels instead of osb or plywood on a framed house?. I am looking for super insulation and good sound barrier. If so, how would you attach them? Do they come in different thicknesses? I plan to have floor heating ducts and no recessed lights in ceilings. Thanks!
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/27/2008 1:02 PM |
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| If you do not need to run, plumbing, ductwork or electrical in it, then it would work. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Gsfrey
Registered Users
Posts:60
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| 06/27/2008 2:02 PM |
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Do you have the ability to build on a crawl space?
If so you can take advantage of the SIP's structural capabilities to use a 6 1/2" panel for the floor set on some sort of beam under the house. You could use OSB I-Beams for example. You could put all of your mechanical under the house and even, as Chris has recomended, insulate the crawl space so you can run the duct work uninsulated and run the electrical as well up into the house through the floor.
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/27/2008 5:38 PM |
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Greg,
I can understand the attraction of SIPs for floors over an uninsulated space, but what is the advantage if you are going to insulate the crawl space anyway?
Very respectfully,
Larry
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/27/2008 7:10 PM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 06/27/2008 5:38 PM
Greg,
I can understand the attraction of SIPs for floors over an uninsulated space, but what is the advantage if you are going to insulate the crawl space anyway?
Very respectfully,
Larry
If the crawl space walls are insulated, then there is no advantage
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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crashkahuna
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 06/28/2008 11:28 AM |
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| Thanks for the advice. I am planning to have a basement either icf or Superior Walls. I guess my real question is does superinsulating between floors offer any real advantages other than noise reduction?. Also I really prefer floors that feel solid and do not make creaking noises over time. Thanks, Steve |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/28/2008 4:51 PM |
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Posted By crashkahuna on 06/28/2008 11:28 AM
Thanks for the advice. I am planning to have a basement either icf or Superior Walls. I guess my real question is does superinsulating between floors offer any real advantages other than noise reduction?. Also I really prefer floors that feel solid and do not make creaking noises over time. Thanks, Steve
You, definitely don't want to insulate between floors! The only time a floor s/b insulated is if it's adjacent to unheated space. Now, if you are looking for sound control, you would probably be using different materials. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/29/2008 12:18 AM |
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Interesting comment - Quote "You, definitely don't want to insulate between floors!" Unquote. Pretty standard practice where I come from. Highly encouraged by HVAC companies as it provides higher performance. Hmmmm. I've never heard that strong of an argument against insulating between floors.
SIPs for sub-floors. We do not do that many, but on occasion we get a customer that wants an entire energy envelope. Floors, walls and roofs. The greatest attribute I've seen with SIP floors is you can go under them 10 years later and the crawl space is clean as a whistle with only the standard cobwebs, but no insulation hanging down, no dust filled, dirty brown insulation. All the sub-trades go about their business as usual boring through
the plates and SIP for plumbing chases, cutting in registers, makes wiring a lot easier for the electrician. No problem for subs. It does run about 30% more than a TJI floor system. The standard SIP floor we install is an 8 inch SIP over girders at 12 foot on center. You can use a 6 inch SIP, but your girders would have to be closer. We've priced the two out and they cost close to the same, so we go with the 8 inch SIP for more rigidity.
SIPs between floors. SIPs have been known to have a drumming effect when walked on, so the argument always has been to not use SIPs between floors for that reason. Again, they are not cost comparative to a TJI floor system, which is why we have never experimented with installing a SIP floor system between floors.
I believe that as alternate types of insulation become more common place and fiberglass insulation is slowly phased out so that the fiberglass insulation industry isn't harmed, you're going to see studies and reports that all those millions of tiny little fiberglass particles floating around in our homes and living spaces are causing some of our cancers. Stick frame homes leak like sieves and vented crawl spaces and vented attics has those particles permeating and floating around our living spaces. Breathing in those small fibers just can't be good in our lung cavities.
A plausible reason to be an advocate for SIP floor systems and/or find alternative insulations solutions.
The Panel Guy
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/29/2008 7:58 AM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 06/28/2008 4:51 PM
You, definitely [b]don't want[/b] to insulate between floors! The only time a floor s/b insulated is if it's adjacent to unheated space.
we have used SIPs over crawl spaces and garages wher hiding mechanicals is not important.
In our own 2 story office we used 6" SIPs as the floor..... as keeping the overall building height low was of importance to us
But in conventionally framed floors we are often asked to insulate for sound control, especially over a great room, living room, kitchen. At a minimum its good practice to insulate the drains so you don't hear the flush every time the bathroom is used above |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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crashkahuna
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 06/29/2008 11:25 AM |
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Interesting that you could get a drumming sound. I am a drummer so should have thought of that since the panels could I guess be like a batter and resonant head but seems like all that foam would be pretty effective muffler.
So it is not a problem to bore thru a sip to add plumbing and electrical?
Thanks again for the responses. |
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/29/2008 1:27 PM |
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Not a problem to bore through the SIP for any mechanical need. As with any structure, you will want to seal around the pipe, wire, sheet metal can (or whatever) where it comes through the wall plate or floor. Standard practice for sealing the home and meeting Title 24 requirements for any type of building system.
SIPs don't have a great STC rating, which in my experience, I believe the testing to be flawed. You immediately sense the quieter environment when you're in a SIP home. SIPs do block high end and mid-range noises and where they fail in the tests are the low end noises. They are supposedly not able to block the bass from the boom box the kid is carrying past your home, or the rumble of big truck tires driving by. Those kind of noises. I haven't experienced that. I own two homes side by side, the stick frame home I built in 1989 which I live in and the ICF (walkout basement) and 2nd floor SIP home I built for my Dad two years ago. We live on a cul-de-sac and I hear all the vehicles coming and going in my old outdated stick frame home, even with the windows shut. I can be over at pop's place and I never hear outside noises unless he has the windows or doors open. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/29/2008 4:02 PM |
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Posted By The Panel Guy on 06/29/2008 12:18 AM
Interesting comment - Quote "You, definitely don't want to insulate between floors!" Unquote. Pretty standard practice where I come from. Highly encouraged by HVAC companies as it provides higher performance.
Posted By cmkavala on 06/29/2008 7:58 AM
I thought that was an odd statement too;
I guess that the point is that mid level floors are within your Thermal Envelope. Therefore, unless you desire fairly sizable temperature differences between floors, there would be no energy savings from that practice. I do find it interesting that some people(ala TPG) think that there is a performance benefit. If all of the space within the envelope is designed to be 70°, please explain to readers how insulation between floors is going to enhance the efficiency of the structure.
Granted, if people desire to avoid heating or cooling a space(within the envelope), then insulating around that space(interior walls & floor) would make sense. However, in most cases I see no benefit from the practice.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/29/2008 4:49 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 06/29/2008 4:02 PM
[u]Posted By cmkavala on 06/29/2008 7:58 AM[/u]
I thought that was an odd statement too;[/quote]
I guess that the point is that mid level floors are within your [b]Thermal Envelope[/b]. Therefore, unless you desire fairly sizable temperature differences between floors, there would be no energy savings from that practice.
This is very often a request in Florida homes (yes I know the world doesn't revolve around FL.) |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/29/2008 7:27 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 06/29/2008 4:49 PM
Your statement is valid EXCEPT ........if the different areas are serviced by two different HVAC systems, then it would affect the effeciency of the home as you have seperately controlled environments.
This is very often a request in Florida homes (yes I know the world doesn't revolve around FL.)
I'm glad that you figured that out. But, your statement has no relevance in this discussion. If you really understood how Heat Loss/Gain are calculated, then you would know that the Delta-T(Temperature Difference) is the determining factor, and since both areas would have the same temperature(or very close), there would be no additional requirements for either system.
The fact that someone is using 2 independent systems, presents elements of efficiency that are much more difficult to quantify. And, none of them have anything to do with insulation between the two areas that have similar temperatures. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 06/29/2008 8:30 PM |
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PC;
It has every relevance ........these threads evolve thru discussion.... they are to answer questions not only for the original post , but for the many people following threads and choose not to join the discussion
so in answering the original thread SIP floors may or may not be a good idea depending on the application, however one may still want to isolate the thermal envelopes with alternate methods depending on the use.
An example to put in simpler terms for you... if you had a duplex - one above the other, you would want 2 separate thermal envelopes with two separate HVAC systems, enabling each to control their independent environment.
Most people on this forum don't know what the Delta-T factor is, but they do know they would not want to help pay for a neighbors utility bill, if that happened to be the application.
I can assure you there are many instances in the same household where a 10 degree TD is desired if it were possible and in many high end homes some areas are sectioned into multiple zones for that exact purpose.
Maybe its just a Florida thing? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 06/30/2008 9:36 AM |
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| As I was building my two story home, I noticed that there was at least an 8 to 12 degree difference between the upstairs and the down stairs. Therefore I used the EPS packing material that my panels wre shipped in to insulate the up stairs from the down. Then I did install two seperate systems one for up and one for down. I didn't want any of the heat form the up to filter to the bottom so I insulated it with 4 inch EPS. Now the bigg difference is during the summer I can run the up a littler cooler than the down and what comes down the stairs helps keep the down cool, and keep the down a litter warmer during the winter as the heat rises, etc. This is very relevant and something that should be noted as it increases the efficiency of the HVAC and loweres the utility bills. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 06/30/2008 1:44 PM |
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| I wanted to add that a friend of mine here in Florida bought a very large two story home with the idea of using an upstairs area as a video editing room. He wasn't able to effectively do that because the house was on a single HVAC system and he needed to keep his up stairs at 75 degrees for his equipment to function properly, Well this temp made the rest of the house extremely cold and could not be achieved at all during the summer months. The coolest he could get the up stairs was 80 degrees during the summer. So having two separate envelopes serviced by two separate systems can be a good idea no matter where you live. |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 06/30/2008 5:06 PM |
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A single HVAC system with zoning (i.e., motorized dampers under computer control) is often a reasonable alternative to two separate systems, if you can get an HVAC shop who knows how to do it properly and cares whether it works (good luck). But whether you have two separate systems or a single zoned system, it is not necessary to create separate thermal envelopes within the structure, unless you want large temperature differentials, or if you want to heat in one zone while cooling in the other. Neither situation is really common. Regular uninsulated stud walls and floors will do a fine job of keeping different zones as much as 10F different.
In fact, the problems mentioned in this thread pretty much prove that uninsulated walls and floors can maintain a large temperature differential between different areas of the house. Most of the problems described in this thread are a result of poor HVAC design and balancing. It is a known problem that having a single, unzoned HVAC system in a two-story house will cause huge temperature differentials in either the heating or cooling season, or both. There is often a damper in a hard-to-reach place that can be adjusted manually to rebalance the top and bottom floors, which needs to be done at least twice a year when you switch from heating to cooling or vice versa. When cooling, you need most of the air up top, but when heating, you want most of it below. This can be done, but usually homeowners don't even know where to find the right damper(s) to do it.
If you have a two-system house, the balancing will happen automatically. During the cooling season, the top floor system will work hardest, and during the heating season, it will be the bottom unit doing most of the work. (In most buildings that is, but if your roof insulation/air sealing sucks, you might be doing a lot of work up top all year round.) An automatic zone controller with motorized dampers will also do the trick if done carefully. Which is better depends on the size of the house, climate, etc.
One final way to balance the house -- if you want every room to be the same temperature -- is to run the system fan continuously. This is terribly inefficient with a typical blower motor (~300W), but an efficient ECM motor can run at low speed 24/7 without consuming much electricity. This circulates and mixes the air in the house all the time, keeping temperatures even. As an added benefit, if you have good air filters in your return, it will keep the air flowing over the filters all the time, which keeps dust out of the air.
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Ratman
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 07/12/2008 10:32 PM |
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interesting dialog.
I am installing 6" EPS/OSB as a floor over my Insulated garage. The garage is 28X40 and the rooms above are a guest room and an office. The delta-T is a concideration in the design and engineering as well as building code conciderations, vapors, sound and comfort. I find that this approach is cleaner and give me the results desired.
I must admit that I have engineered the floor loads as if it were a conventional design/construction, using 2x10 joists 24 OC due to my span and carry. So my recomendation is that as you look at using SIP's as a floor sub surface, calculate your floor loads. you may/will need to put an underlyment on top of the OSB.. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/13/2008 9:51 AM |
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Posted By Ratman on 07/12/2008 10:32 PM
interesting dialog.
I am installing 6" EPS/OSB as a floor over my Insulated garage. The garage is 28X40 and the rooms above are a guest room and an office. The delta-T is a concideration in the design and engineering as well as building code conciderations, vapors, sound and comfort. I find that this approach is cleaner and give me the results desired.
I must admit that I have engineered the floor loads as if it were a conventional design/construction, using 2x10 joists 24 OC due to my span and carry. So my recomendation is that as you look at using SIP's as a floor sub surface, calculate your floor loads. you may/will need to put an underlyment on top of the OSB..
regardless of system you will need a center bearing beam. I don't think 6" - OSB wiil make it 14 ft.,
6" steel will with a 35 lb. load @ L /240 or 8" steel will go 14 ft. with 45 lb. load @ L /240 and an underlayment is advisable.
Steel is also available in one 28 ft. piece
My office loft is 6" steel at 12 ft. span with, osb underlayment finished oak floor, big oak desk, several full file cabinets and is rock solid.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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