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JimmyUser is Offline
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Posts:4





07/05/2008 12:47 AM  
Are there any issues?

How about with air flow ??
wesUser is Offline
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Posts:374




07/05/2008 6:47 AM  
Put down a good quality underlayment first.
Airflow has not proven to be a problem for us.

Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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Posts:808





07/05/2008 8:21 AM  

Jimmy;

 

I agree with wes , underlayment - no air space - no problem


Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
RatmanUser is Offline
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Posts:18




07/12/2008 11:20 PM  
Does anyone have experience with Galvalume SIP's for roofing? What R-value can I achieve using a Galvalmue SIP roof (6")? Is this more cost effective that applying a standing seam roof on an OSB/ PolyU SIP roof?

Is there some marketing/ sales and technical data I can review? Any know manufacturers/distributers in the upstate NY or western VT. area?
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/13/2008 9:59 AM  
Posted By Ratman on 07/12/2008 11:20 PM
Does anyone have experience with Galvalume SIP's for roofing? What R-value can I achieve using a Galvalmue SIP roof (6")? Is this more cost effective that applying a standing seam roof on an OSB/ PolyU SIP roof?

Is there some marketing/ sales and technical data I can review? Any know manufacturers/distributers in the upstate NY or western VT. area?


Yes  - cost effective, practical, its one step, but it only works were there are no valleys in roof.

Most Steel SIPs are in the southeast, but all will ship nationwide, if you send us an e-mail we will send profle , connection details, testing, etc.

we have left several $500,000. gulf coast  homes bare metal, at 3 stories high  - you need to get  a block away to see roof , from that distance it just looks like a plain white roof

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
ronaldsauveUser is Offline
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Posts:17




07/31/2008 12:58 AM  
One issue to think about when putting a metal roof over any roof deck including SIP's is condensation.  If you were to put metal down over any roof deck without allowing for any ventilation under the panels, you will get condensation on the bottom of the roof panels.  Think of it this way: When you have a cold glass of water on a warm humid day, what happens?  Condensation on the surface of the glass.  The same thing will happen when you have warm humid air contacting a cooler surface, (the roofing).  Think about dew forming on blades of grass in the morning.  Warm humid air on a cooler surface, the grass, (the grass is cooler, because the ground is cooler).  On the top of the panel, it is not a problem.  It will quickly dry.  On the bottom, when there is no air circulation, such as when the roof panel is in direct contact with the roof deck, condensation forms.  Because it cannot readily dry, over time, eventually corrosion can take place.  Therefore it is good building practice to lay down roofing felt over the SIP's, apply vertical then horizontal strapping, and then the metal roofing panels screwed to them.  Why not just horizontal strapping?  Two reasons.  One, if water should ever get behind the roofing, (that would never happen!), then it has a way out down the roof slope.  Two, vertical strapping will provide a vertical ventilation space for air to flow in at the eaves and out at the ridge.  Problem solved.

Ronald Sauve
ronaldsauve@greendesignbuild.net
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/31/2008 5:42 AM  
Ron;

my truck has condensation on the hood every morning and does not corrode from the top down, I don't think your line of reasonong is correct?
but the felt paper is necessary

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
DonaldsonUser is Offline
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Posts:90




07/31/2008 9:13 AM  
Posted By ronaldsauve on 07/31/2008 12:58 AM
 On the top of the panel, it is not a problem.  It will quickly dry.  On the bottom, when there is no air circulation, such as when the roof panel is in direct contact with the roof deck, condensation forms. 

Ronald Sauve
ronaldsauve@greendesignbuild.net

Ronald,

I have yet to see condensation on the underside of roofing panels.  If what you say is true then asphelt shingles on any substrate would also condense moisture on the underneith side, and there is no air space there! My metal roof is on top of my steel sip panels with flet underneith to keep the metal  from touching metal.  It condenses moisture almost every day and drains down the roof and down the gutters jsut like the rian.  Condensation forms on the out side of the glass not the inside where the water is.
ronaldsauveUser is Offline
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Posts:17




08/03/2008 11:01 PM  
You may have heard of Building Science Corporation, http://buildingscience.com/bsc/ , a highly respected source for the best information regarding building design and practice.  If you have not, take a look; it is well worth the effort.  I am consistently amazed at the lack of knowledge exhibited by so many in the building trades.  Of course, I have been at it for longer than some; (38 years), but less than many others, so I am still learning.  BSC is an excellent resource for that.
Here is an excerpt from one of their pages.  There is much much more.  You will find them a very valuable resource.  Sorry for the length.  There are some details included that affect this discussion.

Rain water infiltration is the largest source of material deterioration in buildings.  The control of rain water is best achieved if some simple principles of drainage are followed.  The fundamental design looks to create a means to drain water off the building, out of the assemblies and components, and away from the building.  The design uses a strategy referred to as a rain screen approach.  In a rain screen approach, the exterior primary plane of water shedding (cladding, shingles, metal roofing, etc) is not relied upon to be completely watertight.  A secondary drainage plane (usually a housewrap or taped insulating sheathing), [or roofing felt], is installed behind the main exterior water shedding surface.  This drainage plane in combination with flashing details allow any water that may penetrate through the exterior water shedding plane to drain back out to the exterior.

Figure 6: Diagram of drainage

Figure 6: Diagram of Drainage

After liquid water intrusion, air leakage is the second most common mechanism for depositing moisture in wall assemblies.  Air leakage occurs due to air pressure differentials causing air to flow through or within the building assembly.  In order to control air leakage a continuous plane of air seal must be created.  This air seal must be continuous not only for each building assembly, but at the connection between adjoining building assemblies.  Uncontrolled air leakage can also impact the energy efficiency of the building as infiltrating air will need to be conditioned or through the loss of exfiltrating conditioned air.  The Building America goal is to achieve an infiltration rate equivalent to 2.5 square inches per 100 square feet of building enclosure area.  Creating a continuous air seal is possible; however, special attention is often needed at transition details between different assemblies and systems.  


Figure 7: Moisture transport

Figure 7: Moisture transport comparison

Vapor transport through diffusion can be a benefit or a detriment.  In some circumstances, vapor diffusing into a wall assembly can condense and accumulate resulting in problems with material deterioration.  On the other hand, vapor diffusion can also be used as a drying mechanism that will allow assemblies to dry to either the exterior or the interior or both.  In general, the vapor control strategy used should maximize the drying potential of the assembly while minimizing the potential for wetting.  With vapor diffusion being affected by both permeability of building components and temperature gradients across assemblies, the vapor control strategy is often related to, and integrated in, the insulation system design as well.  For cold climates, walls are generally designed to dry to the exterior, with the vapor permeability of the exterior of the wall being 5 times more permeable than the interior; or, they are designed with insulating sheathing in order to control the temperature of the condensing surfaces. The thickness of the insulating sheathing is determined by calculation based on the severity of the climate.

Roof Design

The roof is designed with asphalt shingles installed over a predominantly cathedralized ceiling.  [The same principles apply to metal roofing]  While the shingles will ensure that the vast majority of the liquid rain water and snow melt sheds off the surface, an SBS roof membrane (similar to a W.R. Grace Ice and Water Shield) fully adhered to the roof sheathing is installed at the eave locations and completely over the low slope roof areas to protect the roof from ice damming and potential water penetration from wind driven rain.  The overhangs from the roof are designed to extend a minimum of 12 inches from the exterior wall.  This amount of overhang will provide some protection for the wall elements such as windows and doors that are traditionally common sources of water leakage.  With the overhangs preventing the wall systems from getting wet, the risk of water intrusion through these elements is greatly reduced.

Figure 8: Roof drainage

Figure 8: Roof Drainage

The vented cathedral ceilings and attics are designed with the interior plane of air tightness is located at the plane of the interior gypsum board.  All the joints in the gypsum boards must be taped and sealed.  In addition, any penetration through the gypsum must be air sealed, and all light fixtures should use air tight electrical boxes.  In order to maintain the continuity of the air seal between the roof and the wall, the interior gypsum board is sealed to the wood framing at the top of the wall assembly at band joist locations or to the wall gypsum board.  In order to maintain the interior air seal at the band joist location, sealants or gaskets are used to seal between the framing members. 

Figure 9: Roof air barrier

Figure 9: Roof Air Barrier

The vapor control strategy of the assembly is to promote drying primarily to the exterior and to reduce the amount of vapor able to diffuse from the interior environment into the roof structure.  This roof assembly has continuous back-venting from eave to ridge of the structural roof deck, providing higher drying potential of the assembly to the exterior. This, in combination with the low vapor permeability of the rigid insulation on the interior of the catherdralized ceilings and the latex paint finish on the ceiling of the vented attic portions that keeps interior moisture out of the roof assembly, makes for a robust, cold-climate roof assembly.

Figure 10: Roof vapor management

Figure 10: Roof Vapor Management

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