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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/09/2008 8:29 PM |
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We are planning in constructions
a new home in eastern Tennessee
using SIP’s for the walls and roof. We
are planning on using either store or brick for the exterior wall covering and I
am very concerned about water infiltration through the stone/brick veneer and
the disintegration of the external OSB skin.
The area where we are building does not flood and I am most worried
about wind driven rain.
I plan to install a drainage
plane such as Home Slicker plus Typar between the SIP’s and the brick veneer
and may also specify the use of a non-woven material such as CavClear. If we
choose a stone veneer, I would assume that wire lath and scratch coat will be
installed directly over the OSB (with a vapor barrier between the lath and
OSB) However, I still worry about water
infiltration and unseen damage to the SIP’s.
I have used very low permeability self-adhesive products such as Grace
Ice and Water Shield on roofs and was considering using such a product on the
exterior of the SIP walls as well.
After reading the various
discussions regarding the use of vapor barriers and the integrity of OSB SIP
skins I am really confused between the different schools of thought. Am I being overly cautious regarding the
protection of the external SIP skin?
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wes
Registered Users
Posts:374
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| 07/09/2008 9:10 PM |
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Very seldom do I run into someone more cautious I am. But I think you may well be, Scott.
With brick veneer construction, wind driven rain is not as big a factor as sun driven moisture. However, the end result is the same, moisture where you don't want it. But careful installation of a rain screen, (ie Tyvek or eq) behind the brick that is installed correctly with weep (drainage) holes properly located and no buildup of mortar to block drainage, should be sufficient to keep your OSB dry. Natural stone should be laid in the same manner, with an air space and rain screen behind, with the same results. Mfg. stone or dryvit requires far more detailing to assure the long lifespan of your OSB.
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/09/2008 9:57 PM |
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Wes,
I have replaced a lot of rotten OSB (and plywood) behind siding that looked perfectly normal on the outside. Usually around improperly sealed or poor quality windows and doors. It's easy with stick frame, but I would assume that replacement of a SIP panel is much more difficult, especially if it is behind a stone or brick veneer. I have considered the use of fiber-cement siding, but wanted a relatively maintenance free retirement home. BTW, I sent you a private message the other day regarding my construction project. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/10/2008 7:04 AM |
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Posted By Scott101 on 07/09/2008 8:29 PM
We are planning in constructions a new home in eastern Tennessee using SIP’s for the walls and roof. We are planning on using either store or brick for the exterior wall covering and I am very concerned about water infiltration through the stone/brick veneer and the disintegration of the external OSB skin. The area where we are building does not flood and I am most worried about wind driven rain.
I plan to install a drainage plane such as Home Slicker plus Typar between the SIP’s and the brick veneer and may also specify the use of a non-woven material such as CavClear. If we choose a stone veneer, I would assume that wire lath and scratch coat will be installed directly over the OSB (with a vapor barrier between the lath and OSB) However, I still worry about water infiltration and unseen damage to the SIP’s. I have used very low permeability self-adhesive products such as Grace Ice and Water Shield on roofs and was considering using such a product on the exterior of the SIP walls as well.
After reading the various discussions regarding the use of vapor barriers and the integrity of OSB SIP skins I am really confused between the different schools of thought. Am I being overly cautious regarding the protection of the external SIP skin?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Matt Phelps
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 07/10/2008 8:17 AM |
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As you correctly identified there are several schools of thought regarding drainage plains for structures in general, and SIP construction is no different. In practice, a variety of drainage plain plans is necessary to accommodate the various climates that present in the US. A drainage plain system that is appropriate for say the arid Southwest would most likely fail in a temperate climate in say central Texas. The same would be true for a drainage plain system that is suitable in central Texas that was being used in say south Florida. In other words, one size does not fit all and it depends on the climate in which your structure is to be located.
I do not know much about the rainfall and humidity norms in eastern Tennessee; however, we have found that drainage plain system that do not provide water vapor from a surface to condense on once the dew point has been reached (an occurrence that happens almost daily) such as the barrier products you mentioned and do not provide sufficient separation from the exterior cladding (no matter what type) will not continually drain sufficiently to prevent material damage or undesirable conditions (rot, mold, etc.).
In general, the higher the rainfall and humidity the greater the depth of the drainage plain should be (distance between the barrier and exterior cladding). There are several excellent resources available on how this system should be designed and you may wish to refer to The Builders Guide to Structural Insulated Panels by Joe Lstiburek. I have found this book to be a valuable reference and I would encourage anyone who is considering SIP construction to buy and read this book. I have read it more than once and refer to it often.
Best of luck to you,
Matt B. Phelps, P.E., R.S.
Advanced Green Building Products
201 CR 138
Hutto, Texas 78624
512/670-9400
mphelps@apec-llc.com
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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/10/2008 8:53 PM |
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| I have seen The Builders Guide to Structural Insulated Panels advertised on the SIPA website. Have been meaning to pick up a copy. I started out with the Michael Morley book a couple of years ago and found it very helpful in terms of the actual construction of a SIP structure. I heard rumors that he was coming out with a follow-up publication. I will definitely invest in the Lstiburek book. Thanks! |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 07/14/2008 5:01 PM |
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Scott101,
If you are worried about driven rain and the possibility of having to replace an OSB panel that has swollen up due to water infiltration, especially when if you use stucco or concrete to connect the stone to the face of the osb, which means that the wood and stone/cement expand and contract at different rates causing possible cracking and thus the water infiltration, If this is a concern then you really need to look into steel /galvalume sips. My home went through four hurricanes with just the factory paint on it no other exterior, and no water penetration. Concrete and steel expand and contract at the same rate therefore greatly reducing the chance of cracking and there is no water penetration with steel. |
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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/14/2008 9:49 PM |
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While wind driven rain is more of a serious concern where I live now, east central Florida. I am not as concerned with this problem in eastern TN. An occasional tornado maybe and I am making provisions for that. Our lot is situated in a heavily wooded area and may stay shaded for long periods in the spring and summer. My concern is that the brick or stone will absorb water and not dry out for extended periods of time. I am less concerned with brick, as I plan a 1” air space between the brick and the OSB with a drainage plane (3/4” to 1” non-woven mat) and vapor barrier between. Weep holes will be located at the top and bottom. I guess my question with brick is a vapor barrier such as Tyvek sufficient? I have had problems with Tyvek deteriorating in the past after getting wet. I had been thinking of installing something like a self-adhesive roof product like Grace Ice and Water Shield for the first six feet or so up the wall where the most water exposure will occur.
On a stone faced wall I am more concerned since it is unlikely that an air space could be easily constructed. One thought that occurred to me was the use cement backer board on furring strips to create an air space? A vapor barrier would be placed over the outside of the SIP’s prior to installing the furring strips and backer board. The furring strips and backer board would be screwed to the OSB. As with the brick, weep holes would be placed at the top and bottom of the stone walls. Any thoughts?
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/15/2008 7:26 AM |
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| I like the Grace Ice and Water Shield Idea, are there termite issues in E. TN? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/15/2008 7:40 PM |
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| Termites are a problem in Tennessee, as in most other southern states. However, living in Florida, infestations are common. My cousin's house in Tennessee is all wood and has a lot of perimeter shrubbery and has not had a problem in the 30 years that the house has been there. From what I have read, subterranean termites are the big problem there. Precautions like backfilling with course sand for the last foot or two of backfill around the basement is supposed to deter them. Also placing fine screen barriers on the weep holes is also a deterrent. Also regular perimeter treatment will also help. However, nothing is 100% effective. |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:308
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| 07/15/2008 8:05 PM |
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Scott101,
To the best of my knowledge, commercially available sand that is sized right to deter termites is available only in Hawaii and Australia. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Scott101
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/17/2008 9:19 PM |
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Deviating from the original topic here we are. However, sand is available in all 50 states. The specific size if 16 mesh or grit. Pre-packaged sandblasting sand can be ordered or builders sand, or screenings can be graded using a sieve to the proper size. It is recommended that a band 20" wide be laid 4" thick around the pervious areas of the foundation perimeter. Also backfilling of the stem wall or basement wall with clean fill material free of organic material, (leaves roots, limbs or other dinner materials for termites will go a long way. Therefore, I am not too worried about termites.
Termites (and carpenter ants) like wet, soft wood. This is the situation that I am trying to avoid by installing appropriate bapor barriers and am looking for advice about. If I were building another home here in Florida, I would definitely consider steel skinned SIP's. However, in Tennessee, I will be using OSB skinned SIP's. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/18/2008 6:14 AM |
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Posted By Scott101 on 07/17/2008 9:19 PM
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Termites (and carpenter ants) like wet, soft wood.
You just described OSB when it gets wet from plumning drip, roof drip and improper moisture control
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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EastMark
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 07/18/2008 7:39 AM |
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Chris
iI gotta say you know what your doing, no question. That being said the method of promoting your product as the end all is getting annoying. Is it just me ?
You have found a way to intercept every other topic and put the 'steels better' spin in there. I know you think every OSB building in the country is about to implode either today or in a few years but there are literally millions of them in all climates across the nation.
I appreciate the warnings to us all from you for the betterment of mankind and the shelters we live in but todays OSB is not an evil monster if built right.
Shoddy builders are.
BTW, Im not in the business and own neither steel or OSB SIPS. Just here looking for objective info on green.
Mark |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/18/2008 8:55 AM |
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Eastmark;
Yesterday there were 16 new members to the forum, I'll bet that most have never heard of steel SIPs.
I just made a post yesterday about an OSB company in Lansing, MI. and how I liked there balloon framing. I made no mention of steel.
I don't think OSB SIPs have hit the 1 million mark yet?
BUT I have built with OSB SIPs and I am fine with OSB in some climates. OSB is not an evil monster, it is just limited in versatility.
I am a proponent of steel especially in the Southeast US, every GC we have done buildings for do not want to go back to the headaches of conventional methods.
I make other contributions to the forum that are not SIP related. I am contacted via private email by hundreds worldwide that read the forum needing additional info and respond to them all. There is no gain for me in helping someone in Australia, Russia or England.
I don't know if you've noticed but the SIP forum & SIPA are mostly driven by OSB mfg.s & builders, I know I am the red-headed step-child in the bunch.
So sorry if I sound like a clanging bell, but I plan to continue to make it known that there are alternatives to wood and in some cases steel is a better choice.
If you don't like what your watching, change the channel |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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EastMark
Registered Users
Posts:22
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| 07/18/2008 1:48 PM |
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Chris,
I guess thats why they make chocolate and vanilla. People like different things. Your a great guy who believes in your product.
No need to apoligize for that. I also acknowledged you are knowledgable no doubt. Consider steel...I get that.
Many of the OSB SIPS issues/concerns are common to issues of a OSB stick house....which are well proven and in the millions...and some other issues are obviosly foam/adhesive/etc related.
The structure questions of the current OSB products to me are not really an issue if its installed properly...thats my only point here.
Im sure you disagree which is fine but Im confident if I skin a timberframe with a OSB SIPS envelope and do it right it will be around longer than I will. Compared to steel...I never asked that question.
Mark
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