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lisa6801
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 07/18/2008 9:35 AM |
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I am recent to this wonderful forum. Will build a house in central VA within the year. My brain feels like mush from reading about SIPS/ICF and comparing to standard wood. As with all I am concerned where this country is going with energy. I am serious about using geothermal but know, I do the sizing will depend on the insulation/structure used. I have 2 floors main and basement. about 2300 feet each floor (about 1500sq ft of basement will be finished later on). Lots of steep roof lines 12:12 (french cottage style). I am not as savvy as so many of you where it comes to building but am retired military (28yrs) and have time to research and learn. This is the retirement home. I need to narrow down my options and keep getting side tracked with so many products. My closest big city is Charlottesville (1hr) and Fredericksburg (45min). I will build in MADISON CO. If anyone can give me some good advice to keep me on track I would appreciate it as well as recommending some professional in my area to talk too, I would appreciate it. Just trying to compare the pros and cons for SIPS/ICF is a challenge. THX ahead! God bless America!
Lisa |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 07/18/2008 10:38 AM |
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Just as a warning, a lot of the participants on this forum are manufacturers or vendors of particular solutions. Don't assume that all advice is impartial. Even those not selling something may have an emotional attachment to one way of doing it because that's how they did their own house, and they want to feel justified.
My personal opinion is that you can build a great house using any of the technologies you mentioned: SIPs, ICFs, or wood framing. Any method requires careful attention to detail. Detail, detail, detail. Wood framing in particular requires attention to detail, but you're not off the hook with SIPs or ICFs either. You can also do conventional concrete forms, rammed earth, AAC (autoclaved aerated concrete), and the list goes on. In all cases, the devil is in the details.
If you are not going to be your own builder, your best bet is to find the best builder in your area and go with what he is familiar with using. You don't want to pay for somebody else's education. If you are willing to be your own builder, or look over your builder's and subcontractor's shoulders very carefully to make sure they get the details right, then you should start educating yourself. Check out the Builder's Guide series by Joe Lstiburek -- he has one for each climate. You're in the Mixed-Humid climate, I think. He mostly talks about conventional wood framing, but a lot of it is applicable to SIPs and ICFs as well. He recently published a book specifically about SIPs as well. Check out http://www.buildingscience.com/ for some free articles from him to get a flavor of the sorts of thing he addresses, and you can also buy his books there (or sometimes slightly cheaper elsewhere).
My inexpert opinion is that if you want a building that will last forever (and it is questionable whether that's a really great idea), SIPs over timberframe/post-and-beam are your best bet if you want SIPs, or I think ICFs (with or without timberframe/post-and-beam) are also safe. (Consider light steel framing for the interior framing either way.) I have some concerns about the long-term durability of SIPs when used as structural members (i.e., when the SIPs hold up the floors/roof). And when I say long-term, I mean 100+ years. If properly designed and installed, SIPs will certainly last 50+ years, and frankly that might be good enough. In 50 years we'll have some pretty amazing new building technologies that will put today's SIPs and ICFs to shame, so you'll be wanting to do some major renovations by then anyway. (Still not an excuse to build crappy houses, though.)
I think ICFs are safe enough to use structurally for the long-term because even if the insulation degrades or gets eaten by insects, the reinforced concrete is there to stay (unless reinforced/poured improperly!), and you can always repair/replace the insulating part. It's much easier to repair/replace non-structural components. Then again, if you have moisture issues, there can be problems even with reinforced concrete, because the rebar can chemically react and corrode. ICFs can make this worse by trapping moisture in between the insulating layers and never letting the concrete dry properly. Those problems are well-understood by now, though, so just get yourself a knowledgeable concrete contractor and you should be fine. (I am not a knowledgeable concrete contractor, but I think the key is in using a low-moisture concrete mix, and providing an escape route for moisture from the concrete at the bottom and top of the walls. Please consult somebody who knows what they're talking about, which is not me.)
I suspect I'm going to get seriously flamed for saying some of that. Let the flaming begin!
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:38
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| 07/18/2008 11:57 PM |
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nortman -
If her brain already felt like mush before reading your post......its probably turned to soup now.HaHaHa. I don't think you did much to calm her nerves. Its great that you tried to be as "unbias" as one possibly could, but at the same time you could have left it at.........
"your best bet is to find the best builder in your area and go with what he is familiar with using. "
(with the caviat that if he refuses to consider SIPS or ICF, etc. you probalbly aren't talking to the best buillder in your area.)
Lisa - I hope there are some people on this board from your area that can point you in the direction of local builders with EXPERIENCE using either SIPS or ICF. Echoing nortman, you can build a high quality home using either ICF or SIPS. Good luck!!!! |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:807
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| 07/19/2008 7:00 AM |
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Posted By SoCalScott on 07/18/2008 11:57 PM
nortman -
"
(with the caviat that if he refuses to consider SIPS or ICF, etc. you probalbly aren't talking to the best buillder in your area.)
SoCalScott;
But, may be closed minded? or afraid?
years ago, I sold wood roof trusses when many builders were still using rafters, 1 x 10 sheathing and hand nailing. (because it was better)
So fast forward 40 years and you still have builders refusing to think "outsde the box" .......no pun intended.
Its not a question of quality building, but it is the fact that owners and insurance companies are demanding homes be built - more enegy efficient, able to withstand, earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, wildfires and long term sustainabilty.
The newer technologies are making these things possible.
We have gone thru 3 code changes over the past 10 years for wind and enegy efficiency. The conventional builders are jumping thru hoops trying to keep up with their antiquated conventional building style. During that same time we have made no changes to our techniques and still stay in compliance.
In our location SIPs are no longer more expensive to build. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 07/19/2008 9:59 AM |
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Posted By SoCalScott on 07/18/2008 11:57 PM
nortman -
If her brain already felt like mush before reading your post......its probably turned to soup now.HaHaHa. I don't think you did much to calm her nerves.
Well, you're right of course, and I did ramble on a bit. But the fact is that there's not really a simple answer to the question. Let me try to sum it up a little better: You can approach this sort of question in two ways. First, is to recognize that either building technology (and others beyond just SIPs and ICFs) can produce a very good, efficient, durable, comfortable, attractive building if used properly. You could just give up on the complex task of deciding which is really the absolute best for your application, and go with what is most convenient given locally available skills, materials, and budget. Or, you could go down the long and twisty road of digging in and learning everything there is to know about each technology, and all the details, so that you have a hope of picking the best one. This path certainly includes looking in places like this to get opinions and answers to specific questions, but remember that everybody has their own personal biases, and nobody really knows your specific situation.
When digging into those details pay attention to things like wall/wall, wall/floor, wall/roof, roof/roof (hips, valleys, ridges), wall/window, wall/door, and wall/foundation intersections. Those are the places that heat, moisture, air, and insects get through. Any buliding system worth considering does a great job sealing and insulting the middle of the wall, so take that as a given.
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 07/19/2008 2:59 PM |
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My inexpert opinion is that if you want a building that will last forever (and it is questionable whether that's a really great idea), SIPs over timberframe/post-and-beam are your best bet if you want SIPs,
Mort,
Sips over Timber fram is that what you did? If so are you trying to justify yourself?
The idea of the forum is to present your ideas and why you think they are the best so that others can learn from your experience. If you didn't believe in what you did personally then it would be hard to give an opinion. If you haven't done anything then it is hard to give an opinion that is based on hear say and not on personal experience.
The best advice I can give is to narrow your options down to three types of construction and find at least three projects going up using those options. Example: OSB Sips, Steel sips and say ICF. Go on site and talk with the people doing the work and see if it is something that you feel you can do yourself orif it is the product for you. Having done this very thing I chose steel sips. After four hurricanes, steel sips laugh in the face of a hurricane, and having to suffer (ha ha) with 60% less on my utilities, (.05 per sq. ft. per month VS .13 per sq. ft. per month) and in bug infested Florida I only have bugs that ride in on my dog. Yeah I am proudly biased because I did something that worked and is everything that I thought it would be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 07/19/2008 4:06 PM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 07/19/2008 2:59 PM
My inexpert opinion is that if you want a building that will last forever (and it is questionable whether that's a really great idea), SIPs over timberframe/post-and-beam are your best bet if you want SIPs,
Mort, Sips over Timber fram is that what you did? If so are you trying to justify yourself? The idea of the forum is to present your ideas and why you think they are the best so that others can learn from your experience. If you didn't believe in what you did personally then it would be hard to give an opinion. If you haven't done anything then it is hard to give an opinion that is based on hear say and not on personal experience.
I haven't done anything with SIPs yet, but I'm planning on it. I've been digging up as much information as I can. I love SIPs from what I've seen so far. Great stuff. All I'm saying is that for all the wonderful stuff I've read about them, I haven't seen much about long-term durability, and as I mentioned above when I say "long-term" I mean something around 100 years or more. I don't think anybody knows how foam behaves as a structural material on that sort of timescale. The fact that I haven't actually used SIPs (yet) is why I said I was giving an inexpert opinion. Inexpert but carefully considered.
That said, I will probably use SIPs on my current project, and use them structurally (i.e., without post and beam, so that the SIPs are holding up floors and roof). I'm doing this despite my concerns about long-term durability because for this particular project I'm happy with a 50-year lifespan. 100 years isn't really required here. If I were going for something to last 100+ years, I would be very, very reluctant to use SIPs in a structural role. That's where I would rely on post and beam (whether timber or steel) for structure, and use SIPs as cladding and insulation. Of course, that's more expensive. Durability doesn't come cheap.
In the not-so-long term, there is no denying the raw strength of SIP construction. I think it's a great building technology for hurricane and tornado areas in particular for that reason. Stick framing just can't compare, and ICFs will generally be more expensive. And there is every reason to believe that a SIP building could well last 100 years, so long as moisture is properly managed, but I don't think anybody can say what the chances of that are yet.
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 07/19/2008 8:48 PM |
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Mortman,
In all your research, I hope that you have uncovered some great facts as far as the longevity of sip structures even when used as the structural strength of the home., Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Mr. Dow of Dow chemical made the first sips in 1939 with plywood and eps and built a house that is still performing well today, that would be a 70 year test. His son Alden Dow used them to build quick government contract homes on the many military bases that went up as the US military expanded in the 50's and 60's. They have been in use for decades in the Antarctica, used for speed of construction and have held up to the extreme cold. In 1993 in Kobe Japan an earth quake left huge section of the city leveled but the only structure that survived were the sip homes. In 2002 in Summer or Sumter Tn a house on a block foundation suffered a direct hit by a tornado, crumbling the block stempp wall and lifting the house and moving it over several feet with no structural damage done to the home. The owner was able to re use some of the panels when he rebuilt. This week Chris Kavala's own home took a direct hit from a fallen tree, it held up fine.
The point is, the sip structures are going to be around for a very long time and if you use steel ones then even flood or fire, or termites aren't going to be able to take them out. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 07/19/2008 9:45 PM |
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| PS: my information comes from books such as Mike Morley's and the many web pages of the thousand sip manufacturers out there that I have waded through over the last 8 years. |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 07/19/2008 10:44 PM |
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I had heard about the 1939 Dow house, but I haven't seen anything about how it's doing these days, or what repairs have been necessary. I'm glad to hear that it's still standing.
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:308
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| 07/19/2008 11:49 PM |
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Lisa,
Do you plan to hire a builder or be your own builder?
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Alton at auburn dot edu |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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thuley
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 07/21/2008 9:58 AM |
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Lisa,
Looks like you have received some good info so far. One thing I did not see was a cost consideration.
SIPS as a finished package are less expensive than ICF's.
However ICF's are structurally stronger, in the area you plan to build it may be over kill. If you are doind a basement ICF's are the ticket and then use SIPS above grade and for the roof if the design will allow for it.
But look at the entire house as a system, spend time making sure all the components work properly together
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ReadyToRetire
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/21/2008 5:11 PM |
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Lisa,
I'd looked at geothermal but its cost was prohibitive. If you look at the difference, what other upgrades do you need to abandon to come within budget? If you've already got top quality in windows, doors, design, materials, etc., then the additional efficiency in the geo has little basis to work on -- you've already reduced your costs. If you have not, then the same money might give you better results applied to those other features before you look at geo.
Heck, if you're on the hot/private side of Lake Anna, you might not need any heating. (grin.)
Good luck,
Larry
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