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PanelCrafters
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Posts:1323
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| 08/10/2008 3:33 PM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 08/10/2008 12:39 AM
Some are just so insecure....
Nope. But I do enjoy how you and Tin Man seem to be joined at the hip.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 08/10/2008 4:08 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 08/10/2008 7:33 AMPosted By Jelly on 08/09/2008 10:15 PM
You two go at each other like an ICF guy going after a SIP guy. I love jc, I would just like to see him come over from the dark side!
Not a chance. My clients build homes, not structures better suited as farm out buildings. Oh, and those 'advantages'? The limits to which you are going, to proclaim an 'advantage', are getting pretty humorous. 'Hotter To Handle'?
You are really grasping at straws now...
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 08/10/2008 4:28 PM |
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Can't think of any advantages can you? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:93
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| 08/10/2008 5:51 PM |
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One potential advantage of OSB/FC would be moisture permeability. Yes, I'm listing that as an advantage, because breathable structures don't trap moisture. The foam itself is a good enough vapor/moisture barrier; if you put impermeable skins over that, you risk trapping water. OSB/FC skins will dry outward with suitable claddings. Sure, if you have standing water, you're better off with steel (or FC). But standing water tolerance is not a design criterion for most buildings. Not everybody builds in flood plains or coastal hurricane zones.
Also, claiming that you can fur out the wall as an advantage of steel is a bit of a stretch. You can fur out an OSB wall if you like. OSB gives you the choice, so steel cannot claim an advantage because it forces (or rather, strongly encourages) you to fur out the drywall.
I'm sure steel is a good fit for many applications. But there is no one size fits all solution.
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jrc3
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 08/10/2008 7:34 PM |
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The motive is information, detective! (aka - jrc3) nice try ...
I'm not sure what you mean by this. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 08/10/2008 8:55 PM |
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Posted By rnortman on 08/10/2008 5:51 PM
One potential advantage of OSB/FC would be moisture permeability. Yes, I'm listing that as an advantage, because breathable structures don't trap moisture. The foam itself is a good enough vapor/moisture barrier; if you put impermeable skins over that, you risk trapping water. OSB/FC skins will dry outward with suitable claddings. Sure, if you have standing water, you're better off with steel (or FC). But standing water tolerance is not a design criterion for most buildings. Not everybody builds in flood plains or coastal hurricane zones.
Also, claiming that you can fur out the wall as an advantage of steel is a bit of a stretch. You can fur out an OSB wall if you like. OSB gives you the choice, so steel cannot claim an advantage because it forces (or rather, strongly encourages) you to fur out the drywall.
I'm sure steel is a good fit for many applications. But there is no one size fits all solution.
rnortman;
OSB SIPs are not very breathable structures, it is why ERVs & HRVs are recommended.
Fiber cement will soften when submersed in water for 24 hours
I speak from experience having built with OSB, fiber cement and Steel ....the furring /air space also aids in the STC rating which has a history being problematic with OSB SIPs, it is a smarter way to build rather than fishing thru chases.
There is no easy way to add an outlet after the fact, it is truly a major deal.
the chases also limit the flexibility of outlet placement , you are limited by the location of the chases.
with ceiling fan placements it would be a fluke if one hit the center of the room because of chase limitations
I agree that one size does not fit all, I am trying to motivate people to consider alternatives to wood
Unfortunately those opposed to steel speak with no first hand experience, only ignorance would compare them to farm buildings
Our clients build quality homes ..... most are well educated professionals, engineers, doctors, teachers, pastors, contractors & other building professionals that have done their due dilligence, having come to the conclusion that steel sips are the best choice for them
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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tapper
Registered Users
Posts:8
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| 08/10/2008 9:45 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 08/10/2008 8:55 PM
OSB SIPs are not very breathable structures, it is why ERVs & HRVs are recommended.
I'm just a software engineer and I find that statement hilarious. If metal SIPS promote air infiltration then why would anyone want to use them?
Here is a quote from "Builder's Guide to Structural Insulated Panels (SIPS) for all Climates" by Joseph Lstiburek about metal SIPS:
"What about all these sheet metal faced SIPs? Well, they are always somewhat of a risk as they rely on "perfect" joints and no penetrations since they can never "dry" outwards or inwards. They are pretty good for freezers if you don't perforate them with holes - so they would be a dump idea as an exterior wall system with cladding attached with screws, but would be a pretty good idea if they were painted or had a direct applied stucco."?
So it sounds like metal SIPs are fine as long as they have no perforations.
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:93
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| 08/10/2008 10:22 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 08/10/2008 8:55 PM Posted By rnortman on 08/10/2008 5:51 PM
One potential advantage of OSB/FC would be moisture permeability. Yes, I'm listing that as an advantage, because breathable structures don't trap moisture. The foam itself is a good enough vapor/moisture barrier; if you put impermeable skins over that, you risk trapping water. OSB/FC skins will dry outward with suitable claddings.
rnortman; OSB SIPs are not very breathable structures, it is why ERVs & HRVs are recommended. Fiber cement will soften when submersed in water for 24 hours
When I said "breathable" above, I was specifically talking about water vapor permeability, not air permeability. All SIPs regardless of skin material are basically air-tight if the seams sealed well. But water vapor (i.e., humidity) can move through materials that air cannot move through. Air basically moves through gaps; vapor moves through materials. It moves through OSB and FC quite well. It moves through closed-cell foam slowly (whether EPS or PUR). It moves through steel not at all (effectively). In steel, it can only move through the perforations and seams. This presents the potential that moisture will get inside the SIP (either in liquid or vapor form) and not be able to get out through the steel skin. It will get out easily through OSB or FC.
However, I'm not saying that steel sucks. Steel has lots of advantages. I'm saying this is one advantage of OSB or FC (or magnesium board, for that matter) over steel. In my mind it is the biggest and perhaps only advantage that OSB may have over steel, other than possibly cost (depending on where you live, I guess). I really like the idea of steel SIPs, but they're not superior in EVERY way. I haven't decided myself what skin material I'm going to use on my current project, and steel is still in the running.
I'm interested in what you say about FC softening when submersed in water. I thought the cement was basically unharmed by water other than by freeze/thaw cycles (which will do a number on any material). Is it the fiber reinforcement that suffers? I can certainly see that. But again, outright flooding is not a concern for many buildings.
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:268
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| 08/10/2008 10:46 PM |
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| All the infighting doesn't instill confidence in the consumer. |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 08/10/2008 11:19 PM |
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Posted By tapper on 08/10/2008 9:45 PM Posted By cmkavala on 08/10/2008 8:55 PM OSB SIPs are not very breathable structures, it is why ERVs & HRVs are recommended. [/quote]I'm just a software engineer and I find that statement hilarious. If metal SIPS promote air infiltration then why would anyone want to use them? Here is a quote from "Builder's Guide to Structural Insulated Panels (SIPS) for all Climates" by Joseph Lstiburek about metal SIPS: "What about all these sheet metal faced SIPs? Well, they are always somewhat of a risk as they rely on "perfect" joints and no penetrations since they can never "dry" outwards or inwards. They are pretty good for freezers if you don't perforate them with holes - so they would be a dump idea as an exterior wall system with cladding attached with screws, but would be a pretty good idea if they were painted or had a direct applied stucco."?
So it sounds like metal SIPs are fine as long as they have no perforations.
We have been down this road before, if you are putting a screw into a panel you are not making a hole but having a steel screw filling a steelhole. You will have lees opportunity for leakage as the steel to steel expands and contracts at the same rate as opposed to wood and steel nails or screws. In the event of water penetration, A steel sip wil dry at the same rate that water penitrates. But at least it will dry out should that happen and it will dry with out any swelling or delamination from bits and pieces of wood coming apart should you have the water penatration with OSB. And most important how is it that you are building with OSB with out making any perferation? You Nail or screw up and down the spline making many times more perferations than with steel that friction fits together. and is screwed top and bottom only, yet still exceeding Florida hurricane wind codes.
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 08/10/2008 11:25 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 08/10/2008 3:33 PM [u]Posted By Donaldson on 08/10/2008 12:39 AM[/u]
Some are just so insecure....[/quote]
Nope. But I do enjoy how you and Tin Man seem to be joined at the hip.
I guess when two people have had the opportunity to build with OSB sips, Cement Sips and Steel sips and after all is said and done and all the comparrisions are made, ie time to build, total cost and bottom line and when that comparrisions are done and Steel Sips come out on top then you are likely to agree on things. Now I would take the OSB, or cement sip or steel sip over anything that was stick or block or evn ICF for that matter but if give the choice between the three I truely believe Steel is the better bang for the buck. I am simply making an hosest actual comparrision between the three after having been privy to use all three. JC have you built anything with cement and Steel sips?
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 08/11/2008 5:34 AM |
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Posted By Jelly on 08/10/2008 10:46 PM
All the infighting doesn't instill confidence in the consumer.
Would you rather find out the pros and cons after the fact?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 08/11/2008 5:42 AM |
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Posted By rnortman on 08/10/2008 10:22 PM
I'm interested in what you say about FC softening when submersed in water. I thought the cement was basically unharmed by water other than by freeze/thaw cycles (which will do a number on any material). Is it the fiber reinforcement that suffers?
try a piece for yourself ............ the edge become putty like and easily pliable with your fingers .....will bend and fall apart.
I could see wind driven rain being a problem with stucco over fiber cement |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 08/11/2008 7:31 AM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 08/10/2008 11:25 PM
JC have you built anything with cement and Steel sips?
No. And, I don't plan to either. It's either OSB SIPS or ICF's. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Donaldson
Registered Users
Posts:90
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| 08/11/2008 7:55 AM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 08/11/2008 7:31 AM Posted By Donaldson on 08/10/2008 11:25 PM
JC have you built anything with cement and Steel sips? No. And, I don't plan to either. It's either OSB SIPS or ICF's.
This is like saying I drive a stick and it is the best and I will never try an automatic because that isn't real driving. But you critisice me, someone who has driven both and then gives my opinion on which one worked the best for me. A stick shift is a great option on a car. It can save you plenty of $ in better mpg's. I just got a new truck and my kids were shocked that as an old man in their eyes, (almost 50) I could drive a stick, since they have never seen one up close. There is noting wrong with a stick shift vehicle, we have driven them since the auto was invented. But I must say at the end of a long day of driving, my legs sometime say hey, why did't you get the automatic?
The point of the forum is to share our experiences and collective knowledge, to further the effort of building with better products.
Any sip is better than anything else out there on the market, but as one with experience building with multiple sip types of sips, I choose steel sips because of the truth of the long list that CKavala points out. But each reader needs to do their do dilligence to see them all and decide which one best fits their paticular application.
Have a great day!
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 08/11/2008 9:17 AM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 08/11/2008 7:55 AM
This is like saying I drive a stick and it is the best and I will never try an automatic because that isn't real driving.
Actually, I'm not saying that at all. And, I currently drive a stick.
I choose steel sips because of the truth of the long list that CKavala points out
Therein lies the problem. I just don't see his long list as advantages.
The bottom line is most of the users in this forum don't bash other products in their quest to push their product. Kavala does this on a daily basis.
Have a great day!
Your sarcasm aside, I will! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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teslastones
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 08/11/2008 9:24 AM |
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On the input that the FC will soften in just 24 hours if left soaking in water.
That surely must be portland based FC!!
I do R&D in mostly non-portland binders and I can show you material made from MGO that has been soaking for 15 years and is not impacted.
I personally have a full sheet that has been laying on the ground for two years (in all types of weather as it is in the Midwest)
There has been no degradtaion.
If someone is bringing in the cheap stuff from China (there is good stuff from China too) then "maybe" but even then I think your observation must be referring to Portland based fiber cement. |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:93
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| 08/11/2008 10:38 AM |
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I've been curious about MgO skins for a while. I haven't gotten as far as getting quotes, but my understanding is that it's more expensive than OSB, steel, or portland FC skins. Is this true? How is the strength compared to other skin materials? Am I correct that it's vapor permeable, at least as much as OSB or portland FC? (Perhaps I need to start a new thread for the MgO discussion...)
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teslastones
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 08/11/2008 1:12 PM |
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Yes, I would think it is more than the other choices--
It is like my wife's divorce--expensive but worh every penny.
What worrys me, as a person knowledgeable about the chemistry and working towards getting production of mgo board and other products in the US, is that people will import the ceapest stuff they can get and then everyone will point towards the failures as being the fault of MGO.
An MGO board that is produced with quality control will not be anywhere near the water sensitivity of OSB oreven portland FC |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 08/11/2008 7:33 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 08/11/2008 9:17 AM
Therein lies the problem. I just don't see his long list as advantages.
The bottom line is most of the users in this forum don't bash other products in their quest to push their product. Kavala does this on a daily basis.
jc..............Please point out where I bashed a product on this thread?
I think it is rather you the pot calling the kettle black
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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