rim question
Last Post 14 Jan 2009 12:05 AM by SimonD. 9 Replies.
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BooneUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 12:18 PM
Assuming a 10" concrete foundation wall, is it practical to build the subfloor set in the thickness of your SIP and just order a taller SIP that would run continuosly from sill to roof?  Boone


CHLUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 12:40 PM
From a thermal perspective absolutely. It's notoriously inefficient to insulate under the subfloor against the foundation rim band with all of the thermal wicking and air pockets (if using fiberglass or similar). However, it's not a fun day for the installer (and can take significantly longer) because you're not simply setting the panel on a base plate the same level as you are standing. Additionally you'll need to ensure the panel is secured to its base plate from both the interior and the exterior - more of a challenge in this configuration. And, of course, you'll need a treated or composite sill plate to ensure the wood siding of your panel does not come in contact with the concrete foundation wall.

From practical experience you would need to either be standing on the outside of the wall (either scaffolding or on the ground, but typically at this stage the foundation wall has not yet been back-filled so scaffolding may be required) or have a crane or hoist assisting with assembly - something not always required if simply setting on top of the subfloor. Use backer-rod or minimally expanding foam to fill the void that will probably exist between the subfloor and the wall panel in some areas.

Of course an easier alternative would be to use an insulated and structural rim band (these are available about 3" thick and a variety of heights and lengths) to rim the floor trusses and then the subflooring would be the only item extending to the outer edge (minimizing thermal wicking while maximizing ease of installation) creating your full floor diaphragm.


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09 Jan 2009 01:33 PM
Posted By Boone on 01/09/2009 12:18 PM
Assuming a 10" concrete foundation wall, is it practical to build the subfloor set in the thickness of your SIP and just order a taller SIP that would run continuosly from sill to roof?  Boone

And, don't forget your doors. You'll need a 'mini-panel' for those areas. I have seen some people use the method that you describe. You could also use a 'SIP-Rim' or a combination of foam board and spray foam.

I like the SIP-Rim, and there is an article about it in the Learning Center.


....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
CHLUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 01:48 PM
In preference to the "mini-panel" option for doors in this panel installation the doors should be cut like a large window with the lower side equal to the distance from the sill plate to the subfloor. Fewer voids.


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09 Jan 2009 02:51 PM
Boone,

What you are proposing seems to be one of the major differences between OSB and metal skinned SIPs.  I think the metal SIPs are commonly used to do exactly what you mentioned (continuous panel from sill plate to roof).  Floors are then balloon framed using joists affixed to the wall with light gage C-channels.  I don't think OSB is capable of providing this support with the skin.  The examples I've seen of this being done did not require a crane.


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09 Jan 2009 03:08 PM
Posted By chuck07 on 01/09/2009 2:51 PM
Boone,

What you are proposing seems to be one of the major differences between OSB and metal skinned SIPs.  I think the metal SIPs are commonly used to do exactly what you mentioned (continuous panel from sill plate to roof).  Floors are then balloon framed using joists affixed to the wall with light gage C-channels.  I don't think OSB is capable of providing this support with the skin.  The examples I've seen of this being done did not require a crane.
Chuck07/Boone;

attached photos are good example of baloon framing with metal Sips , a 3 story building 2nd. and 3rd. story balloon framed with metal SIPs.
steel joists done after mst of shell is up,

no crane needed all work is done with scissor lifts, this job could not have been done the same way with OSB


Attachment: 100_0056.JPG
Attachment: 100_0066.JPG
Attachment: 100_0068.JPG

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
CHLUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 03:22 PM
Ballon framing on OSB panels is done all the time, just like with steel sips, though I think you are getting away from his question. Pull-out forces are obviously an issue with OSB, just as they are with steel, if someone doesn't go about it the right way.


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09 Jan 2009 04:39 PM
Posted By CHL on 01/09/2009 3:22 PM
Ballon framing on OSB panels is done all the time, just like with steel sips, though I think you are getting away from his question. Pull-out forces are obviously an issue with OSB, just as they are with steel, if someone doesn't go about it the right way.
CHL;

I said this job would not have been possible with OSB ...as longest panel was 26 ft., which are scarce as hens teeth in OSB we have done other projects as long as 35ft. tall with steel.
Yes, I may have gotten away from the original question but the photos depict the direct attachment of the base to the foundation wall to ensure excellent insulation of the floor box sill.
It has always been our philosophy to build balloon frame for the tightest thermal envelope.


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
LockardUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2009 09:00 PM
Hello Boone. We've been balloon framing with SIPS for a long time, whether it's a timber frame or conventional SIP house. We use Urethane foam panels, so it's not a problem for them to inlay ledgers for attaching a floor system as they build the panels. The company we use also routinely adds backing for cabinets, decks, beam pockets, etc.

Attachment: Ledger Detail.JPG

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SimonDUser is Offline
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14 Jan 2009 12:05 AM
Hi Boone,

I'm a SIPS Designer and setting your floor system within the SIP wall system is the way to go. Reduces labor, insulates the home better and also makes a stronger wall able to handle latteral forces during hurricanes and earthquakes. I'm down here in Florida and design almost exclusively with metal SIPS like the ones Chris K. promotes. Ballon framing with metal SIPS, is the way to go down here, when you are trying to beat the heat and survive hurricanes. Nice picks Chris!


Building Designer<br>PANELfusion, LLC, Tampa, FL<br>simon@panelfusion(dot com)<br>"Metal SIP Advocate"
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