Kyle241
New Member
Posts:33
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| 15 Mar 2009 10:24 AM |
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I am breaking ground in May in Eastern Ontario and my plan has always been to build an energy efficient house as I can afford. The house is a one story craftman style ranch, no complicated walls (basic rectangle 32'x58'). The total sq. footage is approx 1800sq ft. The original plan was to build with SIPs for the walls and then use engineered trusses and blown-in cellulose for insulation in the roof (a SIP roof wasn't justified based on cost). The primary heat will be a masonry heater placed in the centre of the house with the basement having radiant floor heat from a solar PV panels setup on the ground. The house will be built by myself, my brother who is a framer and his colleague, also a framer. Both myself and my brother built my first two homes, one being a straw bale home.
Here are the issues I have encountered:
1) Windows - I have received estimates from Loewen, Hurd, Pella (Architect series), Marvin (Integrity) and am waiting on Fibertec. The inital estimate from Loewen almost made me fall over at $68,000, Pella wasn't far behind at $49,000 (triple pane was another 20%) and the Hurd was something similar to the Pella's. The Marvin quote are the closest to reality that I am willing to pay and yes I could pay more but there is no way I am paying $68,000 on a house that will cost $160,000 to build (that was with a $20-25,000 window budget). So that was the first 'disappointment' that I could not get high energy efficient windows without breaking the bank. Oh well, move on from this issue.
2) SIPs - My biggest concern. I have received 3 quotes, two very similar around $8 sq/ft. Another one that was more than twice the price however it had pre-cut windows and doors, all the splines installed, screws, adhesive, cutting tool, etc. This quote came to $15/sq ft. The latter makes SIP building substantially higher in cost than stick frame if my brother and I are doing most of the work. So now I am thinking that I am not understanding SIPs correctly and that ordering basic SIP panels with chases for electrical is not advisable for 3 people who have house building experience and are only building a basic one story house??? My hope was that we could install the SIPs within a week (5-7 days) without too many issues. We are purchasing from one of the largest suppliers, Insulpan if we go with 1 of two of the estimates we received.
So now I am thinking of tossing SIPs out and going stick framed with sprayed-in foam although that is not my ideal. I would prefer SIPs but the second quote has me very nervous that I am going to receive panels and have a ton of work to do on them. Am I not thinking correctly or am I just getting the nerves because I am so close to ordering and second thoughts are coming my way? Advice anyone?
To be sub contracted: plumbing, electrical, foundation, heat recovery unit.
Thanks for any advice, encouragement as I really want to build this house right.
Tks.
Kyle |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 15 Mar 2009 05:06 PM |
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Have you considered using metal SIPs? Much lighter and easier to assemble than OSB. Order cuts only for large doors and windows. Cut the rest in the field. Furr out for electrical. Find a company close by to avoid high freight charges. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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scott bartels
New Member
Posts:3
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| 15 Mar 2009 06:07 PM |
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The Debate rages on about the cost of SIP vs Frame. There is no comparison, Cost or benefit! Go with Insulspan and live longer! By the time you analyse all the pros and cons you will have missed some of the time you could be living in a panel house and starting to make money on your reduced energy costs! Not to mention it will be the higest quality hoome you can provide for your Family. |
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The Panel Guy
New Member
Posts:66
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| 15 Mar 2009 06:07 PM |
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Hi Kyle,
SIPs can be confusing, particularly since there is not a standard form so you can compare apples to apples and most of the Distributors and Manufacturers do not provide "full-disclosure" quotes. Many leave out shipping costs and taxes and you never know what level of fabrication they are offering.
We provide full disclosure quotes. We line item everything that is in the quote. We provide you with a three tired quote. Materials only, an add option for a Cut & Scoop Package and an option for an "RTI"
(Ready To Install) package. You can purchase at any level you wish.
Not knowing what your sq. ft. numbers are being factored on the $15.00 per sq. ft. quote is out in far left field no matter how it it is figured. The $8.00 quotes should be what is known in the industry as a "Cut & Scoop" package. Should have sales taxes and shipping cost included in that.
Our "RTI" packages run $ 9.50 per sq. foot for walls (sq. ft. of wall surface) and $ 10.50 per sq. ft. square foot of roof surface) for an 8 1/4 inch roof package. Each thicker roof runs about $ 1.25 more per sq. ft. - 10 1/4 - $ 11.75 and 12 1/4 - $ 13.00. An RTI package has all the structural lumber installed into the package, there is no cutting in the field to get the package ready for installation.
An 1800 square foot home should install in a 5 to 7 day period.
Would be happy to look over your quotes to let you know how they compare and what all is or is not included and we could provide you with a quote. I'm with Premier Building Systems and we ship out of Fife, Washington.
Let me know if I can be of help,
The panel guy
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JeffD
Basic Member
Posts:282
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| 15 Mar 2009 08:45 PM |
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Alton,
Metal SIPs need very careful detailing in very cold climates. All metal componets need to be thermally broken from inside to out and all air voids must be eliminated. If designed properly a metal SIP system can work and be cost efficient. |
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| Metal SIP Building Designer<br>jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 15 Mar 2009 10:52 PM |
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JeffD,
You are right about that. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 16 Mar 2009 05:07 AM |
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JeffD;
I think a metal SIP home can be better thermally broken than wood |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 16 Mar 2009 04:50 PM |
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I THINK that an OSB SIP is less susceptible to thermal breaks than a metal SIP. |
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| The Sipper |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 16 Mar 2009 05:15 PM |
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Posted By The Sipper on 03/16/2009 4:50 PM
I THINK that an OSB SIP is less susceptible to thermal breaks than a metal SIP. How do you break the top / bottom plates and window/door bucks? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jimmy48
New Member
Posts:50
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| 16 Mar 2009 05:29 PM |
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stick frame it 2x6 @ 24 o/c insulboard on the exterior for your thermal break closed cell foam inside |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 16 Mar 2009 05:53 PM |
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Posted By jimmy48 on 03/16/2009 5:29 PM
stick frame it 2x6 @ 24 o/c insulboard on the exterior for your thermal break closed cell foam inside its how we built energy efficiency in the 70s, using single top plates and all framing @ 24" oc |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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The Panel Guy
New Member
Posts:66
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| 16 Mar 2009 05:58 PM |
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Stick Frame - Really. Old dinosaur bones. Good enough for grandpa, good enough for the grandson. Sticks had their place in history but with the energy efficient building systems on the market today they need to go the way of the dinosaur.
Let's install thermal bridging at 24 inch on center, try and mitigate it with a 2 inch foam board on the outside and then buy the most expensive insulation on the market. Where is the speed of construction to this.................. nowhere.
Wondering why jimmy48 bothered posting that comment on a SIP site. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 16 Mar 2009 06:26 PM |
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Panel Guy;
Agreed |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jimmy48
New Member
Posts:50
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| 16 Mar 2009 07:15 PM |
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I posted it because he said he was thinking of going stick frame and wanted some ideas Because apparantly the cost of sips were coming in too high and he couldnt justify the cost with the minimal amount of enrgy he would save from useing sips |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 16 Mar 2009 07:47 PM |
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jimmy48,
it was OK in its day and was better than 2x4 & sheathing but by comparison with todays SIPs it is nowhere nearly as tight, which is important for energy efficiency |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Nick735
New Member
Posts:10
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| 16 Mar 2009 08:41 PM |
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Wow does $8 a square foot seem ridiculous to anyone else? Im in CT just got quoted for 8-1/4" EPS sips for a few pennies over $4 ft^2. |
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The Panel Guy
New Member
Posts:66
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| 16 Mar 2009 08:55 PM |
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What does that few pennies over $4 represent. Sounds like a material purchase and then you do all the fabrication in the field. |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 16 Mar 2009 09:22 PM |
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So, CK, all I said was that "I THINK that an OSB SIP is less susceptible to thermal breaks than a metal SIP" That comment was obviously in response to your comment to the opposite theory, with no substantiation to back up your comment.
All major OSB SIP manufacturers have extensive information, illustrations, videos, test results, code reports, etc etc etc on their websites, and I know that you'll have the same thing up and running on your website soon, because you said that you would in a previous post.
You might be right on this specific issue but until we've seen the construction details of your system we can't be sure (I'm taking it for granted that there are others who might be interested in this subject)
My gut tells me that, properely installed, the 2 systems are going to be fairly even on the issue of "thermal breaks". Having said that, there is one............(nope, I'm going to save that "I think" until, and if, I can turn it into an "I know" or at least an "I'm pretty sure"............) |
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| The Sipper |
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Nick735
New Member
Posts:10
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:19 PM |
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Yes exactly. We have done a few SIP homes in the past with pre fabricated panels (basically only the gabel ends pre cut), and we dont feel like the premium over standard square panels was worth it.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 17 Mar 2009 05:40 AM |
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Sipper if all metal channels are thermally broken, my point is how do you thermally break the wood plates & bucks. Wood is a thermal conductor, is it not? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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